【魚論】在智慧的波斯人面前 美國人簡直就是白痴

波斯人是智慧的 

在艾哈邁迪內賈德面前，美國名嘴拉里·金秒變蠢驢

內賈德是我心目中永遠的智慧英雄

美國國嘴大戰伊朗總統　跣人終跣己

13,921 views•Nov 1, 2010

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美國國嘴不敵伊朗總統？早前，伊朗總統內賈德接受了美國國嘴拉利·金(Larry King)的節目專訪，討論有關伊朗核武及人權的問題。節目中二人唇槍舌劍，互不相讓-，但美國國嘴竟多次需要以播廣告為名來轉換話題，足見內賈德過人的口才及思辯。網民大-多對內賈德表示讚賞，認為他大膽又聰明，又指拉利·金壞心腸並表現得像小丑。

視頻：內賈德在美國接受CNN專訪(全程字幕版)

http://www.sina.com.cn 2010年09月24日05:24

　　伊朗總統內賈德近日接受了美國有線電視新聞網拉里·金節目的專訪。美國有線電視新聞網北京時間9月23日播出了這一采談錄。以下是采談錄實錄(中英文對照)：

　　KING: Mr. President, thank you for coming back to LARRY KING LIVE. Do you like coming to America?

　　拉里·金(後簡稱為金)：總統先生，感謝你回到拉里·金實況。你喜歡來美國嗎？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful, I'd like to say hello to your audience, to you and your colleagues, and ask Almighty God to bring health, prosperity and success to all people and nations and countries。

　　內賈德(後簡稱為內，通過翻譯)：奉至仁至慈真主之名，我想向你的聽眾、你、你的同事問好。請求萬能的真主給所有人和所有國家帶來健康、繁榮、成功。

　　I am interested in traveling to all parts of the world to meet with people. The United Nations is an important forum for the exchange of international ideas on how to run international affairs and naturally people like myself should be actively involved in its work。

　　我對前往世界各地和人們會面很感興趣。聯合國是一個就如何管理國際事務進行國際想法交流的一個重要論壇。很自然，像我這樣的人應當積極參與它的工作。

　　KING: Let's get to some current issues. A few days ago, you released the American hiker, but there is still two captives in Iran. How long will they be detained?

　　金：讓我們來談一些時事議題。就在幾天前，你釋放了一名美國徒步者，但仍有兩名徒步者被伊朗關押。他們要被關押多長時間？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Well, they crossed our borders, violated the borders, and a judge will take care of their case。

　　內：哦，他們越過了我們的邊境，侵犯了我們的邊境，一位法官將處理他們的案件。

　　KING: But you did release one. Is there any chance in the name of goodwill that you'll release the others? There were two hikers who made a mistake。

　　金：但你已經釋放了其中的一人。是否存在你以良好願望的名義釋放其他兩位徒步者的可能？兩位徒步者只是犯了一個錯誤。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That one person was released on bail because of mercy, compassion and as a humanitarian gesture. As for the others, yes, there is a chance, but the judge has to take care of the case。

　　內：一個人已因為同情、憐憫、作為一個人道主義姿態獲得保釋。對於其他兩人來說，仍存在保釋的可能性，但法官得處理該案。

　　KING: Do you know when?

　　金：你知道是什麼時候嗎？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends on the judge who will need to handle the case, issue a verdict. There's a process that must go through。

　　內：這取決於處理此案的法官，給出判決，必須走這套法律過程。

　　KING: Do you have any influence in that process?

　　金：你是否對這一過程有任何影響力？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no influence over it. But I have suggested for the lady, in her case, that it be regarded with clemency, mercy and more kindness and compassion to allow her to return to her family。

　　內：我對此沒有影響力，但我就女徒步者案件給出了建議，我建議法官對此持寬厚、憐憫和更大的善意、同情心，以允許她返回美國與家人團聚。

　　KING: What about bail for the other two?

　　金：其他兩人是否也能獲得保釋？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It is possible. It depends on the judge。

　　內：這是可能的，這取決於法官。

　　KING: Would you ·· you're in New York for a few more days. You will address the U.N. tomorrow. Would you meet with their families if they asked to meet with you?

　　金：你是否，你還要紐約呆上數天，你將於明天向聯合國發表講演。如果徒步者的家人要求會見你，你是否會見他們？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our program is closed right now in terms of the fact that it is a tight schedule. But I'd have to consider it. And having said that, I have received no requests。

　　內：我們的活動安排現在已經結束了，我們的時間表很緊，但我願意考慮這件事。雖然如此，我並沒有收到請求。

　　KING: But if they did request, might you consider it?

　　金：但是如果他們確實提出了請求，你是否會考慮呢？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I would positively take it into consideration。

　　內：是的，我將會積極考慮他們的請求。

　　KING: That is hopeful。

　　金：這是有希望的。我們詢問了徒步者鮑爾和法塔爾的家人，他們的母親向你提出了這個問題。這兩人的母親仍在紐約。

　　總統先生，當你上一次12個月前在紐約參加聯合國大會時，你承諾將要求司法部門加快處理我們孩子的案件，就案件表現出最大的寬大。這並沒有發生，我們的心碎了。當你返回德黑蘭，你是否會再次向司法部門提出要求？

　　We asked the families ·· the families of Shane Bauer and Josh Fattal, the two prisoners, and their mothers passed this question along to you. This is from the mothers of the two still there。

　　Mr. President, the last time you were in New York for the U.N. General Assembly 12 months ago, you promised to ask the judiciary to expedite our children's case and show maximum leniency. Our hearts are broken that this has not happened. Please, will you make this request again when you return to Tehran?

　　內：我認為，這確實發生了。所有的國家在對待非法越境邊境方面都制訂有嚴格的法律，對這樣的行為都要進行嚴懲。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that it did happen. In all countries you have very strict laws and strict punishments for border crossings that are illegal。

　　金：你是否提出要求·他們詢問你是否要求司法部門處理此案，他們想念他們的家人。

　　KING: But did you make the request ·· they're asking if you would make the request of the judiciary to move it along. They miss their families。

　　內：我認為世界上有非常多的犯人。我是否要親自就他們中的每個人提出要求？

　　現在，雖然這樣說了，我已要求司法部門仔細研究三名美國徒步者的案件。你知道，世界上有許多犯人。在美國就有250萬犯人。

　　我是否可以要求美國的司法部門表現出寬大？事實上，我將抓住這個機會，要求美國的司法部門對美國的250萬犯人表現出寬大。他們有配偶，他們有母親、孩子、父母。許多人很年輕。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that there are many prisoners in the world. Do I have to make a personal request for everyone?

　　Now, having said that, I have requested the judiciary to look at the case of these three people's cases carefully but, you know, there are many prisoners in the world. Here in the United States, there are 2.5 million。

　　Can I request the judiciary here in the United States to show leniency and I would, in fact, seize this opportunity here and ask the judicial body of the United States, judicial leniency, in the case of the 2.5 million prisoners in this country. They have spouses. They have mothers, children, parents. Many are young。

　　金：我們將在廣告時間後繼續與伊朗總統內賈德進行討論。

　　KING: We'll have more with the president of Iran right after this。

　　(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

　　金：我們回到節目，內賈德總統將於明天向聯合國大會發表講演，美國總統也將向聯合國大會發表講演。我們將隨後談到這一話題。

　　羅伯特·萊文森的情況如何？他是前聯邦調查局特工，他已在伊朗失蹤三年了。人們從未聽到有關他的消息。首先，你是否能告訴我們，他是否還活着，他的狀況是否還好？

　　KING: We're back with President Ahmadinejad. He will address the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, as will the president of the United States。

　　We'll ask about that in a minute。

　　What about Robert Levinson? This is the former FBI agent. He's been missing in Iran for three ·· over three years, hasn't been heard from. First, can you tell us, is he alive? Is he OK?

　　內：我認為我們應當向聯邦調查局提出這個問題。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think we should ask that question from the FBI。

　　金：但是他是在你的國家裡··

　　KING: But he's in your country ··

　　內：我怎麼會知道？我怎麼應當知道？有許多人來到伊朗，隨後就離開了。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： How would I know? How am I supposed to know? There are many individuals, many people who come to our country and then leave。

　　金：所以說你不知道他在哪裡？

　　KING: So you have no idea where he is?

　　內：他來了又走了，和平常一樣，我不知道他在哪裡。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He came and he left. As usual. No。

　　金：他的家人稱，他的家人稱，你的政府承諾將就萊文森的失蹤提交一份全面報告，他們在此之後未聽到任何消息。

　　KING: His family says ·· his family that they were promised a full report on his disappearance from your government and they have never heard anything。

　　內：我們從未作出過那樣的承諾，我們同意與美國政府成立一個聯合的信息和情報委員會以收集有關他下落的信息。我們已表示希望儘快成立這個委員會，我們表示，我們作好了加入委員會的準備。如果美國聯邦調查局願意提供他伊朗之行目的的更多信息、他知道什麼信息、他的其它目的地是哪裡，我們可能會就該案提供進一步的幫助。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We never made that promise. We agreed to have a joint information and intelligence committee with the U.S. government to gather information about his whereabouts, on his whereabouts, and we have expressed hope that this committee will soon be held and we express our preparedness to be part of the committee。

　　Now if the FBI were to give more information about the purpose of this trip and what information he had and where his other destinations were, we might be able to assist further in the case。

　　金：但你不知道他在哪裡？

　　KING: But you have no idea where he is?

　　內：你是否有任何信息？我和你一樣，我對聯邦調查局的項目一無所知。我不知道聯邦調查局在世界各地從事什麼樣的活動。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you have any information? I'm like you, I have no idea what the FBI programs are. I don't know what the FBI does around the world。

　　金：我們昨天與他的妻子克里斯丁進行了交談。她詢問你是否能提供伊朗官員與聯邦調查局會談和共享信息的時間和日期？換句話說，她在說，聯邦調查局願意與你坐下來談。你是否能給她一個時間和日期？

　　KING: We talked with ·· well, we talked with his wife yesterday, Christine, Mrs. Levinson. She asked that you give her a time and date for officials to meet with the FBI and share information。

　　In other words, she is saying the FBI is willing to sit down with your people. Can you give her a time and date?

　　內：是的，我接受並同意這一點。當人們旅行遇到問題，失蹤，這使我們感到悲傷。這很可怕。我認為，當所有的情報組織的活動更加透明，建立在更加人道主義的基礎之上，這樣的問題將不會出現，但我將建議，情報委員會應當聯合舉行，伊朗和美國的代表可以坐下來，幫助確定他的下落。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes, I accept and agree with that. It saddens us when people travel, run into problems, disappear. It's awful。

　　I think that if all intelligence organizations work more transparently and based on more humanitarian principles, these problems would not arise, but I would recommend that that intelligence committee be held jointly so that the representatives of Iran and the United States can sit together and help trace his whereabouts。

　　金：你知道，他的女兒將於周六結婚。

　　KING: You know, his daughter is getting married Saturday。

　　內：我就她結婚表示祝賀。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I congratulate her on her marriage。

　　金：如果她的父親能夠出席，那將是非常美好的。

　　KING: It will be nice if her father were there ··

　　內：我對她表示同情，肯定，她父親能出席將是一件很好的事情，我希望那樣的事情能夠發生。我認為，美國聯邦調查局應當在這件事更加積極，找到他們的特工。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And I sympathize with her. Definitely, it would have been very good. I wish that it can happen. I think the FBI should be more active in this case and to find their agent。

　　金：你知道，總統先生，如果那是你的孩子，如果你的孩子之一越過了另一國的邊境並遭到扣押，你將會非常擔心，你將要求儘快處理案件，是否是這樣？

　　KING: You know, Mr. President, if it were your children ·· if one of your children crossed the border of another country and were being held, you would be very concerned and you would press the issue, would you not?

　　內：如果我的孩子違反了法律，正義必須得到申張，因為法律確保安全、穩定。必須遵守法律，如果違反了法律，就不會有安全了。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： If my child violates a law, justice must be served. Because law ensures security. And stability. And laws must be observed because if they are to be violated, there shall be no security。

　　金：我們回來將討論更多議題。不要走開。

　　KING: We'll be right back with more. Don't go away。

　　(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

　　金：我們再次回來，我們正在採訪伊朗總統內賈德。奧巴馬總統和你都在紐約。如果有機會，你是否會會晤奧巴馬？

　　KING: We're back with the president of Iran, President Ahmadinejad。

　　With President Obama here and you're here, would you meet with him if the opportunity arose?

　　內：這得看情況。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It depends。

　　金：取決於什麼情況？

　　KING: On?

　　內：我們已宣布，我們作好了在聯大與他進行自由會談的準備。

　　我認為，在其它成員國和媒體之前坐下來進行，討論我們的觀點將是非常好的事情。在聯合國進行交流。我認為，這將是非常積極的，因為所有的人都能聽到我們所要說的東西。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： We have announced that we are prepared to freely talk with him at the U.N. General Assembly。

　　I think it would be very good to sit before members of other states and the media and to discuss our views. To have an exchange at the United Nations. I think that would be very positive so that everyone can hear what we have to say。

　　金：希拉里國務卿稱，制裁措施正在重創伊朗經濟，甚至伊朗前總統拉夫桑賈尼稱，制裁措施很嚴重，不能忽視它們。你是否對制裁措施的效果和仍在持續的效果感到擔心？

　　KING: Secretary of State Clinton says sanctions are biting your economy. Even the former president, Rafsanjani, said that the sanctions are serious, can't be dismissed. Are you worried about their effect and their continuing effect?

　　內：在我看來，你提出了數個議題。問題是美國政府為什麼在聯合國安理會制裁措施之外對伊朗施加了額外的制裁？這不是非法措施嗎？

　　這是否是美國人民對伊朗人民、更為重要的是，這是否是美國政府對伊朗政府敵意的表示？

　　這是一個議題。第二個議題是，對我們來說，制裁措施真得不重要，因為我們在過去三十年裡一直遭到制裁。此外，我們的經濟也不是建立在美國經濟的基礎之上的，它是一個自力更生的經濟，因為我們能夠滿足自己的需求。

　　令人感興趣的是，在遭到制裁期間，我們具備了更多的動力來從事那些使我們經濟跨越式發展的活動。我們在這方面相當成功。

　　現在，我們知道，在美國，許多人非常擔心，許多人在制裁方面發出了許多噪音，甚至還援引了伊朗國內一些人的說法，這些人看起來對制裁措施損害伊朗的觀點持同情立場。

　　但事實上，我們一點也不擔心制裁措施，制裁措施事實上鼓勵我們更加堅定地追求我們的經濟目標。

　　美國政府與我們沒有任何關係，在過去三十年裡沒有任何關係。他們採取制裁措施又如何？我們在沒有美國的情況下生活了三十多年，我們已取得了進步。

　　當伊朗在美國的控制之下，它是一個落後的國家。自我們在沒有美國的情況下開始生活後，我們已成為一個先進國家。這是否對我們是一件壞事？我認為這是一個積極的步驟。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems to me that you've raised several issues. The question is why does the U.S. government place sanctions that are over above those specified by the U.N.'s Security Council? Is that not an illegal measure?

　　Is it not indicative of the hostility of the U.S., the American people, towards the Iranian people and the U.S. administration, more importantly, towards the Iranian government?

　　That's one issue. The second issue is that sanctions really are unimportant to us because we have been under sanctions for over 30 years. Furthermore, our economy is not based on the economy of the United States. It is a self·contained economy, an indigenous·based economy because we are able to provide for our own needs。

　　And interestingly, in the years of sanctions that have been imposed on us, we have also had more incentive to engage in activities that jumpstart and trigger our economy and we've been quite successful。

　　Now we know here in the United States, many are very concerned ·· many have made a lot of noise over the sanctions and have even identified people in Iran who seem to sympathize with views here that sanctions harm Iran。

　　But really, that's of no concern to us because in ·· on the ground sanctions have, in fact, encouraged us to be firmer in the pursuit of our economic goals。

　　The United States government has no relations with us. Has had none for over 30 years. So what is it that they are sanctioning? We have lived without the United States for over 30 years. And we have advanced。

　　When Iran was under the yoke of the United States, it was a backward country. Since we started living without the United States, we have become an advanced country. Is that bad for us? I think it's quite a positive ·· step to take。

　　金：你是否理解有關對伊朗核武器的擔心？考慮到地區國家的所有敵對情況，你是否理解有關伊朗擁有核武器的擔心？這可能會引發一些你可能從未啟動的一些事情。

　　KING: Do you not understand the fears about nuclear ·· nuclear weaponry in your country? With all the hostility in the region, don't you understand the fears over your having nuclear weapons? That could trigger something that you might not even start。

　　內：誰在擔心？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is concerned?

　　金：世界在擔心。

　　KING: The world is concerned。

　　內：誰是世界？誰代表了世界？美國？它的朋友？不，世界是一個非常大的地方。美國官員的錯誤在於他們視自己為世界，但他們並不是世界。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is the world? Who represents the world? The United States? Its friends? No, the world is a very big place. And what U.S. officials are wrong about is that they see themselves as the world but they are not。

　　金：好吧，以色列總理內塔尼亞胡最近參與我們的節目。他說，我引用他的話“人類面臨的最大威脅是伊朗將獲得核武器，人類，這就是世界。

　　如果以色列對持強烈的看法，你對他們不作出直接的保證，你是否擔心他們可能會首先發起軍事打擊行動？

　　KING: All right. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu was a guest recently on our program and he said, quote, "The greatest threat facing humanity." Humanity. That's the world. "Is that Iran would acquire nuclear weapons."

　　If Israel feels that strongly and you don't directly assure them, don't you fear that they might do a first strike?

　　內：所以你認為，我們感到擔心，我們應當對減輕內塔尼亞胡的恐慌和擔心感到擔心？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So you think that we are concerned ·· we should be concerned about allaying Mr. Netanyahu's fears and concerns?

　　金：是的。

　　KING: Yes。

　　內：我們為什麼要為他作那樣的事？他是誰？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why should we be doing that for him? Who is he?

　　金：他是一個國家的元首

　　KING: He's the head of a country ··

　　內：首先，他是誰？他是一個老練的殺人犯。世界上所有的獨裁者曾譴責過其他人，他是獨裁者中的一位。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who is he in the first place, to begin with? He is a skilled killer. All dictators in the world have condemned others, and he's one of many of them。

　　金：也許

　　KING: Maybe ··

　　內：他應當為殺害巴勒斯坦人、封鎖加沙而受到審判。對加沙的封鎖違反了法律和聯合國憲章。

　　他應當為殺害婦女和兒童而遭到審判，你想減輕他的恐懼和擔心？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： He should be put on trial for killing Palestinians, for placing Gaza under siege, which is against the law and against the spirit of the charter of the United Nations。

　　He should be put on trial for killing women and children, and you want to allay his fears and concerns here?

　　金：我想減輕你的擔心。

　　KING: I want to allay yours。

　　內：允許我向你問一個問題。美國媒體為何對減輕納塔尼亞胡的擔心和恐懼如此負責？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me to ask a question from you. Why does U.S. media feel so responsible for allaying Mr. Netanyahu's concerns and fears?

　　金：因為

　　KING: Because ··

　　內：為什麼？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Why?

　　金：如果他將他的擔心提升到另一個層次，對你發出威脅呢？你難道不擔心他嗎？你，伊朗？

　　KING: What if he took his concerns to the next step and threatened you? So shouldn't you be concerned about him? You, Iran?

　　內：所以你是在擔心他可能會發動戰爭？有人想發動戰爭，他們在尋找藉口，所以你對此感到擔心。

　　我認為，控制像內塔尼亞胡這樣的人和政權意圖的方法就是停止支持他。美國政府應當停止使用美國納稅人的錢來支持他。

　　美國有三千萬、四千萬窮人，4百萬人無家可歸。美國為什麼要花錢讓內塔尼亞胡獲得武器，用不同的藉口中攻擊黎巴嫩、威脅伊朗？這很可怕，非常可怕。

　　金：總統先生，所有這些問題看起來都集中在，他是一個獨裁者，你是一個挑起事端的獨裁者，如果你擁有核武器，他們害怕核武器，你將會遇到問題，這將給世界造成問題。

　　你是否會在這裡稱，你現在沒有將來也不會有核武器？請簡單一點。

　　KING: All of these problems, Mr. President, seem to center around ·· we quibble, he's a dictator, you're a dictator who started ·· if you have a nuclear weapon and they fear a nuclear weapon, you could have a problem that creates a problem for the world。

　　Would you say here now you do not and will not have nuclear weapons? Be simple。

　　內：我們的第一個問題是誰是你再次提及的世界？你的意思是內塔尼亞胡？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Our first question is who is the world again that you speak of? You mean Mr. Netanyahu?

　　金：不，如果所有人

　　KING: No. If anybody ··

　　內：誰是世界？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Who's the world?

　　金：如果有人向其他人投下核彈，整個世界都將受到影響，你明白這一點。

　　KING: If anybody drops a nuclear bomb on anybody, the whole world is involved. You know that。

　　內：請允許我，請允許我，你知道，在民調中，海灣地區百分之八十八的受訪者支持伊朗的核活動，所以，誰在擔心？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me, allow me here. You are aware that in polls, 88 percent of the people in the region support Iran's nuclear activities. So who's concerned?

　　金：什麼樣的活動？

　　KING: What activities?

　　內：這是第一個問題，這是伊朗的核活動，除了猶太復國主義政權和一些美國當局的擔心之外，在海灣地區沒有人表示對伊朗的核活動感到恐懼。

　　我們沒有尋求核武，我們對此沒有興趣，我們認為核武器是沒有用的。我們堅定地要求猶太復國主義政權和美國解除核武。

　　對世界構成威脅的是美國政府和猶太復國主義政權所擁有的核彈。如果他們認為發動針對伊朗的宣傳就可以基本改變公眾輿論，那麼他們錯了。

　　我們將在這一議題上持堅定的立場，我們將在所有國際組織中提出這一議題，我們將在核不擴散評估進程中討論這一議題。核不擴散評估會議通過的會議要求猶太復國主義政權處理它的核武庫。

　　美國政府也必須這樣作以確保猶太復國主義政權的核武庫被解除，因為那個政權是非法的好戰國家。它已證明它對其神經沒有足夠的控制力。它的支持者美國也是如此，美國平白無故地就在伊拉克和阿富汗發動了戰爭。

　　猶太復國主義政府和美國沒有掌握核武庫的能力。這一點也適用於所有擁有核武器的國家。它們必須解除核武，因為核彈是世界上最糟糕最醜陋的武器。那些擁有核武器的國家必須解除核武。從今以後沒有人再有權建造核武。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： This is the first question. It's Iran's nuclear activities. No one expresses fear about Iran's nuclear activities in the region except the Zionist regime and the fear of some American authorities。

　　We are not seeking the bomb. We have no interest in it. And we do not think that it is useful. We are standing firm over the issue that both the Zionist regime and the United States government should be disarmed。

　　The threat to the world are the bombs that the U.S. government and the Zionist regime have. If they think that by propagating against Iran that they can basically change their public opinion, they are wrong。

　　We will stand firm on this issue. We will pursue it in all international organizations. We will discuss in the NPT review process. The Zionist regime was required. And the document ratified by the NPT review conference to address its nuclear arsenal。

　　And so the U.S. government, too, must pursue this idea to ensure that the Zionist regime's nuclear arsenal is eliminated because this regime is an illegitimate war·waging country. It has also proved that it does not have sufficient control over its nerves. And not only that nor does its backer, the United States that gets into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just over nothing。

　　And this government and the United States still does not have the ability to hold nuclear arsenals. And the same argument holds true for all who possess nuclear bombs. They must all disarm. Because the nuclear bomb is the worst and ugliest form of weapon that there is. And those who have it must disarm. And nobody has the right from now on to build nuclear bombs。

　　金：包括

　　KING: Including ··

　　內：所以你在這方面的立場很清楚，你必須明白這樣的宣傳是沒有用的。我們沒有核彈，那些擁有核彈的國家應當解除核武，而不是指責其他國家擁有或者想擁有核武。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： So our position's very clear on this. You must understand that this propaganda is useless. We don't have the nuclear bomb. Those who have it have to be disarmed, rather than accuse others of having it or wanting it。

　　金：我們是

　　KING: We are in ·· we are ··

　　內：所有的美國政府和安理會都非常清楚這一點。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： All the U.S. government knows very well as does the Security Council that ··

　　金：你的回答太冗長了。

　　KING: You're being redundant。

　　內：伊朗沒有核彈，它也不尋求核彈，但我們將持堅定的立場，以確保擁有核武的國家解除核武，它們必須解除核武。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Iran does not have a nuclear bomb and that it is not seeking one. But we will stand firm, stand firm, to make sure they will disarm. They must all disarm。

　　金：很顯然，我們生活在一個恐懼的世界裡，良心，你談論過人權和內塔尼亞胡。伊朗的良心如何？學生，人權捍衛者？你是否應當在那一領域作出改善？伊朗是否有全面的人權？伊朗人是否有權發表自己的看法，舉行示威活動？

　　KING: We're in a world of fear apparently. Conscience ·· you talked about human rights and Mr. Netanyahu. How about conscience in your country? Students, human rights defenders? Don't you have to improve in the area? Aren't there ·· are there full human rights in Iran? Does everyone in Iran have the right to speak out, to protest?

　　內：在世界任何地方，你都會看到那一性質的挑戰。在美國也是這樣，有必要在這方面採取更多措施。這裡是否有全面的人權？我們得運用比較的方法。我不認為，在伊朗，會有一位在辦公室工作了五十年的雇員因為發表他或她的看法而遭到解僱，但這樣的事情發生在美國。一位有着很深厚工作背景的記者僅僅是因為發表了觀點而被迫辭職。這樣的事情絕對也永遠不會在伊朗發生。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Everywhere in the world, you see challenges of that nature. In the United States, too, there is need for more on this front. Isn't there? So we have to have a comparative skill in our hands. I don't think, for example, in Iran, an employee would be fired after 50 years of serving in an office for expressing his opinion or her opinion. But this happened in your country. A reporter with a rich background was forced out of her work simply because she expressed an opinion. This never happened ·· would never happen in Iran。

　　金：從未發生過？

　　KING: Never happen?

　　內：現在，在世界各地，我們都有這方面的問題，但這樣的事情絕對不會在伊朗發生。雖然如此，我了解世界各地都有這方面的問題，包括美國在內。我們作好在一個論壇上坐下的準備，將我們所有的麻煩放在桌子上，就其進行討論，一起解決這些問題。

　　我問你，美國有250萬犯人，不是所有的犯人都是殺人犯、謀殺犯或者小偷，其他人是為何入獄的？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Now, everywhere in the world, we have problems. But this would never have happened in Iran. Having said that, I understand all over the world there are problem, including in the United States. And we are prepared to sit in a forum at a table, place all our troubles on the table and discuss it and resolve it together。

　　I asked you, you have over 2.5 million prisoners here. Not all of them are killers, murderers or thieves. Who are the rest?

　　金：你是在說我們有政治犯？

　　KING: Are you saying we have political prisoners?

　　內賈德：不，這不是我所暗示的，你可以告訴我，他們為何入獄？為什麼？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： No, that's not what I'm suggesting. You can tell me that. Why are they in prison? Why?

　　金：我沒有對每個案件進行過調查，毒品

　　KING: I haven't investigated every ·· drugs ··

　　內：他們都是小偷嗎？他們都是小偷和強盜嗎？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Are they all thieves? Are they all thieves and robbers?

　　金：嚴重的毒品問題

　　KING: Big drug problem。

　　內：你有這麼多的與毒品相關的問題，250萬人，百分之一，每100名美國人就有一人在監獄裡。為什麼？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You have so many drug·related problem, 2.5 million people, one percent ·· out of 100 people in the United States, one person is in prison. Why?

　　金：我們休息一會，我們將馬上回來。

　　KING: Let me get a break and we'll come right back。

　　內：他們都是殺人犯？都是搶劫犯？他們都走私毒品？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Have they all killed? Have they all robbed? Have they all trafficked drugs?

　　金：我不知道這與什麼有關，好的，我們將馬上回來。

　　KING: I don't know what that has to do with it. All right, we'll be right back。

　　(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

　　金：好的，就人權議題，不過，你必須承認你對學生、言論自由的捍衛者採取了嚴厲的打擊措施，人們因為發表言論、在街頭上舉行示威活動而遭到逮捕，你不能說，伊朗在人權問題上有一個開放的良心，在人權問題持開放立場。你無法這樣說。

　　KING: All right. On the human rights issue, though, you must admit that you have students, defenders of free speech that you have taken strong actions against, people in jail for just speaking their minds, protesting in the streets and arrested. You can't say that Iran has opened ·· open conscience to human right ·· is open for human rights to all. You can't say that。

　　內：甚至在我不在這裡的時候，你可以說這樣的事情，對嗎？所以，你為何在我在這裡的時候提及這樣的事情？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You can say these things even if I'm not here, right? So why would you need to mention it while I am here?

　　金：因為你是一個國家的元首，而且，

　　KING: Because you're the head of the country and ··

　　內賈德：你看來是在審判，你在審判，我問你問題，美國有250萬犯人，為什麼？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： It seems you are judging. You are judging. I asked the question. There are 2.5 million prisoners here and why ··

　　金：他們不是因為在街頭發表觀點而入獄的，對這一議題進行比較性研究，他們不是因為舉一個標語牌而入獄的。

　　KING: They're not in prison for speaking out on the streets ··

　　KING: ·· comparative study of this issue. KING: They're not in prison for holding up a sign。

　　內：請允許我，在伊朗，沒有人因為參與抗議示活動而入獄，沒有人因為參與抗議活動而被送入監獄。人們可以自由地舉行抗議活動，但是如果在這裡發生了抗議示威活動，有人襲擊了警察並殺害了警察，你是否會獎勵他們？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Allow me ·· in Iran, nobody is in prison because of participating in protests. Nobody went to prison because of participating in protests. Protests are free. But say if you had protests here and somebody attacked the police and killed the police, would you reward them?

　　金：當然不會。

　　KING: Of course not。

　　內：你是否會獎勵他們？為什麼你會認為伊朗將獎勵他們？如果有人違反了法律，案件將交由法官處理，案情將得到研究和審理？為什麼美國的犯人入獄是因為法律問題，而伊朗犯人入獄就是非法的？在伊朗也有法律過程。伊朗發生過人們在抗議示威活動時襲擊警察的事件，警察提出了控告，法官得處理這些案件。

　　現在，在美國，你告訴我，那些在監獄裡的是罪犯，但在伊朗監獄裡的是自由追求者？這很可怕。為什麼美國當局總是試圖支持那些在伊朗違反法律的人？這並不有助於美國的形象，只會惡化美國的形象。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Would you reward them? Why would you expect Iran to reward them? If anyone violates the law, the case has to go before a judge and it has to be examined and taken care of? Why is it only in the United States that prisoners are in prison for legal issues, legally; whereas in Iran, they're in prison illegally? In Iran, too, there's a legal process. There's been incidents where there have been protests and people attack the police. The police file complaints and the judge takes care of the issue。

　　Now, in the United States, you're telling me those in the prison are criminals, but in Iran those who are in prison are freedom seekers? That's awful. Why is it that U.S. authorities are always trying to support and back people who violate the law in Iran? This doesn't help the image of the United States. It just worsens it。

　　金：我們將無法解決這一問題。在那一領域的另一問題：你是否允許伊朗進行石刑？那名婦女獲得了很多的關注？你是否允許石刑在伊朗合法？

　　KING: We're not going to resolve that. One other thing on that area; do you still permit stoning in Iran? We've had a lot of attention paid to that lady ·· about that lady. Do you permit stoning lawful in Iran?

　　內：我認為我在過去幾天已向記者們就此給出了解釋。那名婦女的案件還沒有完全審理完畢，還沒有就此作出判決。她被控殺害了她的丈夫。我認為如果有人被控謀殺了她的丈夫，人們就會湧上街頭，舉行支持她的集會？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I think that I have explained this in the past couple of days to a number of reporters. This lady's case has not been completely examined yet. No verdict has been issued yet. She is accused of being ·· of murdering her husband. And I don't think in the world if someone is accused of murdering their husband, people would pour on the streets and rally in support of her。

　　金：如果他們將對她實施石刑，人們將會支持她。

　　KING: If they were going to stone her, they would。

　　內：她被控謀殺了她的丈夫，還沒有下達判決，沒有下達判決，沒有刑罰。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： She has been accused of the murder of her husband. There is no verdict issued. No verdict, no sentence has been passed。

　　金：我所問的是

　　KING: All I asked was ··

　　內：這根本與石刑沒有關係，根本沒有作出石刑的判決。德國有人發表了這樣的不實傳聞。我們的司法部門已表示那一傳聞不實。

　　但我想向你提一個問題，拉里·金先生，如果可以的話，我們過去這個時候曾在一起。在匹茲堡舉行過20國集會，10萬人舉行了示威活動以抗議20 國集團的經濟政策。警方對他們發動了猛烈的攻擊，許多人遭到痛毆，警方向他們潑熱水，許多人遭到逮捕。你在告訴我，抗議示威活動在美國是自由的嗎？

　　所以在美國，你是否認為人們可以聚集在街頭，抗議猶太復國主義政權，10萬人？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： And it is not about a stoning case at all. There's no stoning sentence here at all. A person in Germany made this claim, which was untrue. Our judiciary also said it was a false statement。

　　But I would like to ask a question to you, Mr. Larry King, if I may. Last year, we were here the same time. In Pittsburgh, there was a session. The Group 20; over 100,000 people protested against the economic policies of the G·20. The police attacked them violently. Many were beaten up with ·· or hot water was thrown on their bodies and many were arrested. And you're telling me that protests are free in the United States?

　　So here in the United States, do you think people can pour on the streets and protest against the Zionist regime, 100,000 people?

　　KING: I've got a time ·· I've got to take a break. We'll be right back。

　　金：我們再次回到節目，你是否對美國有關在世貿遺址附近修建清真寺的爭議有何看法？

　　KING: We're back with the president of Iran. Do you have an opinion about the controversy in the United States over the building of that Islamic Mosque near where the events of 9/11 took place?

　　內：我對此沒有看法。如果要建設一座建築物，市政當局或者市當局要對此進行研究，隨後告訴人們他們的想法和決定，所以決定應由該市的人民和市當局作出。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I have no opinion on it. If a building is to be built, the municipal authorities or the authorities for the city have to examine it and then tell people what they think and what the decision is. So the decision is for the people of this city and its authorities to make。

　　金：你

　　KING: Do you ··

　　內：我能就此作出什麼決定？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： What decision can I make over it?

　　金：你可能對此有看法。

　　KING: You might have an opinion。

　　內：我對此沒有任何看法，我認為，作為一個基本規則，任何人都應當尊重祈禱場所、宗教場所和神聖的書籍。這是我的理解。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： I don't have any opinion on it. I think that everybody should respect, as a general rule, places of worship, the sanctities that human beings have, and to respect divine books. That I understand。

　　金：中東問題會談將很快再次在中東舉行，你對我們在那一地區看到和平是否持樂觀態度？

　　KING: Talks are about to take place again in the Mideast, about the Mideast. Do you have any optimism that we will see peace in that region ever?

　　內：是的，我非常樂觀。沒有希望，我們將無法更加努力地創造更好的生活。我認為，如果把人們的權利還給他們，和平將會到來。如果巴勒斯坦人民的國家主權得到承認，那裡的問題將會得到解決。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Yes. I am very optimistic. Without hope, we cannot try harder to build a better life. I think if people's rights are given to them, peace will come. If the right to national sovereignty of the people of Palestine is recognized, the problems there will be resolved。

　　金：以色列安全的保證和承認以色列將如何處理？這應得到解決？我的意思是，這是事情的兩個方面，是否是這樣？不是只有一方應作出讓步？這是一個雙方的議題。

　　KING: How about the guarantee of the safety of Israel and the recognition that Israel is a country? Does that have to be solved? I mean, is ·· this is both sides, isn't it? It's not just one side has to give in to create peace. It's a two·sided issue。

　　內：你的意思是我們應當坐下來，為巴勒斯坦人民決定他們要什麼？我認為巴勒斯坦人民應當就此作出決定。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Do you mean that here instead we should sit and decide for the Palestinian people what they should want? I think the Palestinian people should decide about that ··

　　金：承認另一個國家？好的，我們只剩下很少的時間了。我們將馬上回來。

　　KING: ·· recognize another state? All right. We only have a little time left. We'll be right back with our remaining moments。

　　(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

　　金：我們只剩下很少的時間。菲德爾·卡斯特羅不是資本家，你昨天稱，資本主義是世界的一個主要問題。卡斯特羅對你否認猶太大屠殺持批評立場。他說，伊朗應當試圖去理解反猶太主義的獨特歷史？你將如何作出回應？卡斯特羅肯定不是以色列的朋友。

　　(NEWS BREAK) KING: We have only a few moments left. Fidel Castro, who is not a capitalist ·· yesterday you said capitalism is the major problem in the world. Fidel Castro was critical of you for denying the Holocaust. He said that Iran should try to understand the unique history of anti·Semitism. How do you' respond to Castro? Certainly not a friend of Israel。

　　內：除了這一新聞中有關猶太復國主義政權的議題之外，卡斯特羅昨天向我發了一信息，稱那一聲明不屬實，他的聲明被錯誤解讀了，他說的不是媒體所報道的，我對這一說法不抱任何意見。

　　但我想問美國為何如此堅決來保護猶太復國主義政權？美國政府與遠在1萬公里之遙的猶太復國主義政權有何關係，美國有什麼必要支持它？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Aside related to the Zionist regime issue this news ·· Mr. Castro sent a message to me yesterday and said it was untrue, this statement, that his statements were interpreted differently, that he had said something different. So I have no opinion here on this statement。

　　But I'd like to ask why is there so much insistence in the United States to absolutely defend the Zionist regime? What is the relationship between the U.S. government, 10,000 kilometer across the ocean from the Zionist regime, and the need to support it?

　　金：因為有大量的猶太人僅僅因為是猶太人而遭到屠殺，七百萬、八百萬猶太人遭到屠殺。作為一個人道主義國家，我們對此很關注。許多猶太人來到這裡生活。許多猶太人在以色列創造了一個國家，想在那裡和平地生活。

　　你是否知道，卡斯特羅稱，你應當認識到世界仍然存在反猶主義，我們應當對此感到關切。

　　KING: Because a massive group of people were annihilated just for being what they were. Seven Million were killed, eight million. So as a humanitarian country, we care about this. And many Jews came here to live. And many Jews created a country in Israel and wanted to live in peace。

　　Don't you ·· now, Castro did say you should recognize anti· Semitism exists in the world, and we all should be concerned about it。

　　內：這是否是一個真正的議題，美國政府想保護人權？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Is that the real issue, that the U.S. government wants to defend human rights?

　　金：當然。

　　KING: Of course。

　　內：那些人是在哪裡被殺害的？他們是在巴勒斯坦被殺害的嗎？是被巴勒斯坦人殺害的嗎？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Where were these people killed? Were they killed in Palestine? By the hands of Palestinians?

　　金：他們在哪裡被殺害並不重要，事實是他們遭到了屠殺。

　　KING: It doesn't matter where they were killed, it's the fact that they were killed。

　　內：哦，那麼一百萬伊拉克人被殺就可以嗎？如果伊拉克人決定到美國來，占領美國，這是否被允許？他們是在伊拉克被殺的，你將允許他們來占領美國嗎？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： Oh. Then it's all right for a million Iraqi people to be killed and then, would it be OK if they decided to come and occupy the United States? They were killed in Iraq. Would you allow them to come occupy the United States?

　　金：你是在說美國犯下了種族屠殺的罪行，你是在說美國犯下了種族屠殺的罪行？

　　KING: You're not saying the United States committed genocide? You're saying the United States committed genocide?

　　內：這是一個單獨的討論，是的，這樣的情況在伊拉克和阿富汗都發生了。但它是單獨的議題。我想問你，如果在一個國家，一些人的權利遭到侵犯，他們遭到壓迫，按照你的想法，如果你的說法是正確的話，這是否意味着他們可以去占領另一塊土地？這是否符合邏輯？如果我們按照這種邏輯行事，世界還會有安全嗎？

　　1億人或者8千萬人在第二次世界大戰中喪生，如果他們要占領世界各地的二十個國家，那將是非常可怕的。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： That's a separate discussion. And, yes, it did happen in both Iraq and Afghanistan. But that's a separate issue. I like to ask you, if in a country someone's rights are violated, they're oppressed, assuming that your assumption, your statement is correct, does that imply that they can go and occupy another land? Is there any logic in that? If we were to follow that logic, will there be any security left in the world?

　　In World War II, 100 million ·· or 80 million people were killed. If they were to go occupy 20 countries around the world, that would have been terrible。

　　金：以色列是一個合法國家。

　　KING: Israel is a legal state。

　　內：問題在於，問題是，你剛才說這是因為猶太大屠殺，你為何改變了說法？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： The question is ·· come on. The question ·· you just said yourself it's over the Holocaust. Why are you changing your statement?

　　金：你是在說

　　KING: You were saying ··

　　內：我的問題是美國如此堅決保護以色列的利益是什麼？在世界許多地方，人們的人權遭到侵犯。你知道有多少美國印第安人被屠殺？你是否知道？

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： My question is what are the interests of the United States to ·· in absolutely defending them. There are many parts of the world where human rights are violated. Do you know how many American Indians were killed? Do you know or not?

　　金：我知道，我們的時間到了。

　　KING: I know. We're out of time。

　　內：你是一名記者，你應當有這些問題的答案。

　　AHMADINEJAD (through translator)： You're a reporter. You should have the answers to these。

　　金：我們沒有時間了，我們明年將與伊朗總統再次進行討論。我是拉里·金，不要走開。

　　KING: We're out of time. We'll pick this up next year with the president of Iran. I'm Larry King. Don't go away。