設萬維讀者為首頁 廣告服務 聯繫我們 關於萬維
簡體 繁體 手機版
分類廣告
版主:奇異恩典
萬維讀者網 > 彩虹之約 > 帖子
【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎麼篡改聖經的
送交者: nngzh 2023年12月09日08:55:12 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
保羅說,教義又能救自己,又能救聽你的人。(提前4:16)
送交者: 謹守 2023年12月08日17:10:31 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

提摩太前書 - 第 4 章 第 16 節
你要謹慎自己和自己的教訓didaskalia教義, doctrine),要在這些事上恆心。因為這樣行,又能自己,又能聽你的人

KJV (NIV, AV): Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

ESV (LEB, ASV, NRSV, NET, REB, RSV, YLT): Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

老N乾嚎十餘載:教義不救人,只有神才救人。保羅給了假先知老N一個清脆響亮的大耳巴子,這節經文的didaskalia無論譯作doctrine教義,還是譯作teaching教導(或教訓),都說明是救人的,因為傳道人的行為再怎樣好,也不可能救人,既不能救自己,也不能救別人,更何況保羅在這裡點明是“”傳道人的人。

倘若a church teaching is never identical to a divine truth itself, 那麼某個教義或教導是不可能救人的。

你用“描紅大法”來篡改原文主語,也太拙劣下作了吧
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日06:26:08 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 保羅說,教義又能救自己,又能救聽你的人。(提前4:16) 由 謹守 於 2023-12-08 17:10:31

這是老宣的原文:大號加重綠色字形是俺加的,為的是揭穿老宣這“清純”得象三歲孩子的伎倆


提摩太前書 - 第 4 章 第 16 節
你要謹慎自己和自己的教訓didaskalia教義, doctrine),要在這些事上恆心。因為這樣行,又能自己,又能聽你的人。(nngzh註:中文沒有把“救”的主語翻譯出來)

KJV (NIV, AV): Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

ESV (LEB, ASV, NRSV, NET, REB, RSV, YLT): Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.


大家看到了吧,Save的主語是“你”(you),而老宣一描紅,變成“教義”了。

老宣當眾公然以這種下作手段篡改聖經原意來為其庸俗化、偶像化TULIP張目,第一,是老宣為其教義崇拜無所不用其極的邪惡本質的暴露;就算退一萬步說,是其閱讀真有問題,那麼,他這種民科的學習能力也是低劣得令人髮指啊。

TULIP作為人的教義,對教會和信徒靈命增長是好的,只要用的合宜。

但救人的不是教義 句號


願神憐憫你。

污先生又開污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄
送交者: 謹守 2023月12月09日06:42:57 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 你用“描紅大法”來篡改原文主語,也太拙劣下作了吧 由 nngzh 於 2023-12-09 06:26:08

無內容


“人不能救自己”就是你肆意用“描紅大法”篡改聖經原文的理由?
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日08:39:50 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 污先生又開污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄 由 謹守 於 2023-12-09 06:42:57

一直在提醒你:以教義的先入為主來讀聖經非常危險。


而你現在為強調教義而肆意篡改聖經原文的意思,就連錯誤的解經法都算不上,純粹地在表演你糟蹋聖經的邪惡了。

願神憐憫你

本節經文“你...能救自己...”這不是我說的,乃是聖靈說的
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日09:29:14 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 污先生又開污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄 由 謹守 於 2023-12-09 06:42:57

原文的“救”,不但是第二人稱單數,而且還是主動語態,放在上下文中,就是指提摩太。你否認得了嗎?


這節經文,你連第二種讀法的括號都找不出來的 :)


所以呢,你別跟我較勁。俺只是告訴你和你所學的“認信式以經解經”是錯誤的,存在着極大的隱患。

而這種解經方法是棵壞樹的本質,則正是由你們幾個這棵樹上所結出來庸俗化偶像化TULIP網絡流氓的壞果子讓人看出來了。如此而已。


願神憐憫你們幾個。

再說一遍,教義的先入為主不是你篡改聖經的理由
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日09:53:35 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: Grudem's 提摩太在教義和操守上的堅忍會讓他得救,這正 由 謹守 於 2023-12-09 09:42:45

怎麼用教義來解釋原文“你...能救你自己...”是一回事,而你將“你”篡改為“教義”則是另外一回事,前者尚有先入為主解經的弊端,而你所作的則是令人所不齒的解經劣跡。

願神憐憫你

俺把老宣搜羅的對提摩太前書四章16節的解釋都包括在這裡,看看這些解釋能不能成為他篡改經文的根據:

RC Sproul's
送交者: 謹守 2023月12月09日09:50:14 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎麼篡改聖經的 由 nngzh 於 2023-12-09 08:55:12

4:15 all may see your progress. A reference to the advancement of Timothy’s spiritual life, his ministry, or perhaps both. Noteworthy is the fact that it is “progress,” not arrival. Although Christians must not perform good works for the sake of gathering others’ attention and admiration (Matt. 6:1), Christ’s reputation and believers’ spiritual growth are enhanced when growing maturity can be seen in the church’s leaders and members (3:7; Col. 4:5; 1 Thess. 4:12; Titus 2:5, 7, 8, 10).

4:16 on yourself and on the teaching. That Paul summarizes his instructions to Timothy in this manner is an indication of where the false teachers have gone astray, and, hence, where both ministers and Christians in general can go astray, both in character and in convictions.

you will saveGod alone grants salvation (v. 10; 1:1; 2:3), but He is pleased to use His people as instruments in bringing salvation to others. Salvation is not completed in our experience when we come to saving faith. To be sure, faith brings justification and the assurance of salvation, and having been justified, there is no doubt that we will be glorified and freed from the presence of sin, which is the consummation of our salvation (Rom. 8:28–30). Faith also begins the lifelong process of sanctification by which we are conformed to Christ that continues until the Christian’s final glorification in heaven. In other words, everyone who has been justified will certainly be sanctified and glorified, but whereas our justification is complete the moment we believe, our sanctification is an ongoing process that is not completed until we die. Even then, we do not receive our full and final glorification until the resurrection of our bodies, although in heaven we will be free of sin as we await the final resurrection (Rom. 8:1–30).

Theologically speaking, salvation refers to the entire work of God’s redemption that encompasses predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification, although the biblical writers sometimes use the terms “salvation” and “saved” as synonyms for one of the aforementioned aspects of what the Lord does in redeeming us. For example, when Paul says that “by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast,” he is using the term “saved” as a synonym for “justified.” By grace we have been justified by faith, which is not our own doing but the gift of God and not the result of our works.

yourself. Sanctification is a work of God that includes the cooperative activity of the Christian. However, God’s work in His people guarantees that they will cooperate (Phil. 2:12, 13). The Lord never fails to sanctify those whom He justifies. Having changed our hearts in regeneration, our natural and inevitable response is to walk by the Spirit and put sin to death.


 R. C. Sproul, ed., The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust, 2015), 2160–2161.

NICNT's
送交者: 謹守 2023月12月09日10:30:35 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎麼篡改聖經的 由 nngzh 於 2023-12-09 08:55:12

The future tense of the verb (“will save”) is not a denial that salvation is also a present aspect of Christian existence (cf. 1:15; 2 Tim 1:9); rather, Paul envisions the potential influence that Timothy’s life and teaching hold both for his own and the church’s greater realization of God’s salvation. Tying the fortunes of these two parties together is also Pauline (1 Cor 10:33; 9:22); as Paul’s delegate, Timothy exists to serve others, and his realization of the fullness of salvation is incumbent upon a faithfulness that stretches from personal character to the quality of his teaching and service to others.

Thus salvation through Christ, as mediated by the gospel and “the teaching” to “those who hear” responsively, is a present reality.


 Philip H. Towner, The Letters to Timothy and Titus, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2006), 328.

NIGTC's
送交者: 謹守 2023月12月09日10:42:35 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎麼篡改聖經的 由 nngzh 於 2023-12-09 08:55:12

4:16 This verse presents the final exhortation of the section: ἔπεχε σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς. With this exhortation comes the reason why Paul is so persistent and so concerned, because what is at stake is salvation for Timothy and his hearers.

ἔπεχω in its intransitive form takes the dative of the “thing” and means here “give attention to.” There are two things to which Timothy is to give attention (cf. Acts 20:28). The first is himself (σεαυτῷ), reflecting what Paul expressed in v. 7 (γύμναζε δὲ σεαυτὸν πρὸς εὐσέβειαν), and the second is διδασκαλίᾳ, the “teaching” that Timothy has received and followed (see v. 6), that he is to communicate from the scriptures (v. 13), and that ultimately is from Christ (6:3).

ἐπιμένω used figuratively, as here (ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς), means to “continue, persist (in), persevere” (with dative, BAGD). Plural αὐτοῖς probably refers to the nearest possible antecedents, σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, although it may refer to the several items in vv. 6–15. But even these items may be summarily referred to as personal piety (vv. 7ff., 12) and public ministry (vv. 6, 11, 13), which could be succinctly stated as σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, so that either understanding amounts to the same thing. ἐπιμένω with reference to διδασκαλίᾳ refers to persistent fidelity to the teaching and a constant urging of it upon his hearers, as Luke records Paul and Barnabas doing: “Speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43; cf. Rom. 11:22). Paul is reminding Timothy that he must embrace and personally persevere in that which he teaches (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24–27).

The concept of perseverance as essential to salvation, which Paul presents in the concluding words of this verse, has been stated by Paul with this same verb ἐπιμένω in both Rom. 11:22 (“if you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off”) and Col. 1:22, 23 (“to present you before him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard”) and with a different verb in 1 Cor. 15:1, 2 (but with σῴζω as here; cf. in Heb. 3:6, 14). Paul’s insistence on holding fast the “word” in 1 Cor. 15:2 and on perseverance in the “teaching” (διδασκαλίᾳ) are synonymous concepts.

That which Paul has so forcefully exhorted Timothy to do (τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν) will bring about the much to be hoped for outcome: καὶ σεαυτὸν σώσεις καὶ τοὺς ἀκούοντάς σου. γάρ governs the main clause with its key verb σώσεις, and not the participial phrase, τοῦτο ποιῶν, which serves as an introductory recapitulation of the preceding words. Thus γάρ, “for,” introduces the ultimate conclusion of the section and affords the reason for such exhortation. τοῦτο, which usually refers to something comparatively near at hand, likely refers to the immediately previous exhortations within v. 16, especially ἐπίμενε, the call to perseverance. The sum of what has been exhorted is now described with the present active participle ποιῶν simply as “doing” (2 Tim. 4:5 is an especially relevant parallel).

The promised result, σώσεις …, is twofold, “both yourself and your hearers.” The operative verb is σῴζω, which has as a general meaning, “save, keep from harm, preserve, rescue” (BAGD). Although there are those who argue that the salvation is from theological error, i.e., salvation in the sense of preservation (Bengel, Gromacki, Vine, Wuest), most commentators take σώσεις soteriologically and eschatologically (Alford, Bernard, Brox, Bürki, Calvin, Earle, Ellicott, Fairbairn, Gealy, Guthrie, Hendriksen, Hiebert, Huther, Kelly, Kent, Lenski, Moellering, Robertson, Scott, Simpson, van Oosterzee, and White; also J. Schneider, NIDNTT III, 215; W. Foerster, TDNT VII, 995). The other occurrences of σῴζω in the PE (1 Tim. 1:15; 2:4, 15; Tit. 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; 4:18) are clearly soteriological in orientation. It is true that διδασκαλία does deliver from error and bring to truth, but that seems to be included in the ultimate goal expressed in σῴζω (cf. 2:4; so also van Oosterzee). The salvation of the hearers is elsewhere depicted by Paul as the central goal of the ministry (cf. especially 1 Cor. 15:1, 2; 9:22; 2 Tim. 2:10; 4:5), and it is that hope in the living God who is the Savior of all believers that Paul has presented as the centerpiece of encouragement for Timothy in this section.

That a human being, here Timothy, is the subject of σῴζω is a phenomenon found elsewhere in Paul (Rom. 11:14; 1 Cor. 9:22; 7:16a, b), in James (5:20), in Jude (23), and with Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Mk. 8:35b par. Lk. 9:24b). Thus we see that the NT speaks of human agents in addition to the ultimate and absolute sourceGod himself (cf. the very helpful comments of Calvin). Jesus speaks of a man saving his life (Mk. 8:35 par. Lk. 9:24: σώσει αὐτήν= τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ, equivalent to σεαυτόν here) by the decisive act of “losing his life” for Jesus and the gospel, i.e., the surrender of saving faith (here by the perseverance that marks true faith; cf. again Col. 1:23 especially, and also 1 Cor. 9:24–27).

τοὺς ἀκουόντάς σου, “your hearers,” is the natural way to refer to those who are the recipients of the gospel, since it was communicated orally. To Timothy’s hearers the promise is extended with the same requirement for them as for Timothy, perseverance (ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς). Timothy’s διδασκαλία, like Paul’s, is to encourage such perseverance (Col. 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:1, 2) for those whose ears are open to hear and thus can be truly called hearers (cf. 2 Tim. 4:1–5). Lenski summarizes well when he says that God alone saves (v. 10), yet he saves by means, “and it is thus that one who uses and applies these means can very properly be said to save both himself and others.”


 George W. Knight, The Pastoral Epistles: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1992), 210–212.


Baker's
送交者: 謹守 2023月12月09日14:44:07 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎麼篡改聖經的 由 nngzh 於 2023-12-09 08:55:12

16. Look to yourself and to the teaching, persevere in them.

Holy living and sound teaching must go together if Timothy (or, for that matter, any apostolic representative, any minister, any elder, etc.) is to be a blessing. Hence, Paul admonishes Timothy to continue to focus (his mind, understood) on himself, that is, on his own duties, his own gift, his own privilege to go to the depths of God’s promise; particularly also upon the teaching (his own and that of others in the Ephesus district). He must stay on or persevere in them, that is, in holy living and in vigilance with respect to teaching. The promise is: “for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” To be sure, a man is saved by grace, through faith; not by works (Titus 3:3; cf. Eph. 2:6–8); yet, since holy living and sound teaching are a fruit of faith, Paul is able to say that “by doing this” Timothy will save himself and his hearers. It is along the path of holy living and diligence in teaching and in watching over the life and teaching of others, that salvation (both present and future; see on 1 Tim. 1:15) is obtained. Besides, God promises a special reward to his faithful ministers, yes, to all his faithful witnesses (Dan. 12:3; Matt. 13:43; James 5:20); and threatens with severe punishment the unfaithful ones (Ezek. 33:7, 8).


 William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, Exposition of the Pastoral Epistles, vol. 4, New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953–2001), 160.



0%(0)
0%(0)
      N式謹慎:統統都是祭肉之爭而已😄老N你救了自己和污隊友嗎?  /無內容 - 謹守 12/10/23 (7658)
      😄😄😄😄😄老N你越來越污了,死翹翹是鐵定了😄  /無內容 - 謹守 12/10/23 (7734)
      😄😄😄😄😄救人的是提摩太,而不是提摩太謹慎的教義?  /無內容 - 謹守 12/10/23 (7738)
    很顯然木有!因為你是本壇“污穢的言語”之王👎  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (6345)
  Preaching the Word - 謹守 12/09/23 (6586)
    這篇的觀點跟古德恩的一樣,不過更詳細  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (6572)
  Baker's - 謹守 12/09/23 (6618)
  NIGTC's - 謹守 12/09/23 (7299)
      你想得出什麼結論吧?是“馮”救人,還是“馮東西”救人?  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7219)
      你總不能終身只做一個“貼匠”,不是嗎?😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7194)
      你想得出什麼結論吧?😂這些學者得出來的是什麼結論?  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7217)
  NICNT's - 謹守 12/09/23 (7335)
  RC Sproul's - 謹守 12/09/23 (7432)
        這就是你篡改經文的理由? - nngzh 12/09/23 (7437)
          污先生金句:聖靈使用馮東西救了許多靈魂,但馮東西是人的吩咐  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7386)
          那救了許多靈魂的是“馮東西”,還是“馮”???😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7383)
          聖靈說的,人可以自救????😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7407)
            回答過了,你將來可以問聖靈為什麼本節經文說“你..能救自己” - nngzh 12/09/23 (7401)
              這就是我們為什麼需要有純正教義的緣故☝️  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7378)
                所以你是自稱“純正教義”的壞樹所結出的壞果子。 - nngzh 12/09/23 (7370)
                  是傳道人救了聽他的人,還是“道”(教義)救了聽眾???😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7341)
              參見Grudem & Sproul's comments  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7376)
                他們的解釋,是你篡改經文的根據嗎? - nngzh 12/09/23 (7382)
                  他們串改了經文嗎?😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7342)
          聖靈說的,人可以自救????😂  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7398)
  開專欄,太好了👍  /無內容 - 謹守 12/09/23 (7448)
標 題 (必選項):
內 容 (選填項):
實用資訊
回國機票$360起 | 商務艙省$200 | 全球最佳航空公司出爐:海航獲五星
海外華人福利!在線看陳建斌《三叉戟》熱血歸回 豪情築夢 高清免費看 無地區限制
一周點擊熱帖 更多>>
一周回復熱帖
歷史上的今天:回復熱帖
2022: 分地:迦勒的產業
2022: 盛世藏寶,衰世藏金,亂世藏什麼?----
2021: 降臨節靈修第九天 Inn客店外 寒夜裡
2021: 若云:真實人生一:少數民族家做客 (7
2020: 愛比升天更可貴
2020: 對聖經中類比、象徵、比喻的錯誤理解,
2019: 唐崇榮牧師談香港問題 Stephen Tong ta
2019: 12月9日 有一個新家庭的應許
2018: 秋雨之福教會代禱信(zt僅供參考)
2018: 何西阿:從埃及召出來