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網友討論:Rethinking Sanctification
送交者: 黑門山 2012年07月22日21:03:23 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
zt: Rethinking Sanctification
送交者: mean 2012年07月18日17:01:44 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have To


Comments 21 Comments

Fifteen years ago I had it all figured out. My theology was perfect. My passions were flamed by the progressively growing belief that I was going to make a difference—a bigdifference. If someone was in need, I could fix it . . . or at least direct them to the right way to fix it. I had all the answers. I was sanctified and I was being sanctified . . . fast (like, Ferrari-fast).

Fast forward fifteen years…

Things are much different now. I don’t have quite as much figured out. Passions are secure, but have been nuanced by the scars of my soul. Things I was so confident about before now make my spirit blush with frustration, salted with a bit of shame and bitterness. Fixing things is not as easy as it seemed back then. Complications have arisen. People are complicated. I am complicated.

Not long ago, as I discussed spiritual growth with a discouraged Christian gal, I began to see my own plight in hers. She could not understand why she is not a “good” person. “I have been a Christian for thirty years and I feel as if I am less sanctified now than ever. I don’t understand. Maybe I am not even saved.” 

As I reflected on this throughout the day, I realized that she and I are the same. Wait… Let me attempt to give you my previous definition of sanctification:

Sanctification n. The state of experiencing growth that is measured by becoming more Christ-like. Interpretation: You are getting better and better. You are not as mean as you were before. You don’t complain as much. You have a better outlook on life. You are never depressed. Your problems are dealt with in a more mature manner; you know, the way Christ dealt with them. Oh, and you also have more figured out than you did before.

Fifteen years after first subscribing to the above definition, I reflect on my own condition and find myself filled with frustration. Sure, I am not controlled by many of the sins that controlled me before, but I will have to call a strike on all the signs of sanctification listed above. New sins have arisen. Personality flaws. Grumpiness. Complaining. The inability to react to situations with a calm trust. Quick-temperedness. And you know what? There are some people I just don’t like and cannot be nice to. Sheesh, just over twenty years ago I was voted the nicest person at John Marshall High School. Don’t believe me? Check the yearbook. Finally (and you’re not going to believe this), I am progressively finding it harder and harder to not make up excuses about going to church on Sunday mornings, unless I am teaching or preaching—then I am gung-ho!

Why aren’t I getting “better”? I don’t know. I could blame it on so many things, but blame would just be another sign of my sorry state. (Don’t unsanctified people blame a lot? Adam?).

However, this has caused me to reassess myself and my view of sanctification. What does it mean to be made “holy” (the word from which we get “sanctification”)?

New life stages present you with new ways to show off your fallen nature. Kids. Four kids. Four kids under thirteen. Marriage. Death. Sadness. Time allows for more disappointment in others and yourself. You simply have more baggage to deal with than before. Oh, and then there are those times when you get depressed. Wait! Christians are not supposed to be able to get depressed. Especially those who teach theology. Goodness, what use is all that I do if I am now, fifteen years later, experiencing depression? I used to be able to straighten depressed people out with a wave of my magic wand of proper biblical interpretation! Guess that does not work quite as well as I thought.

Fifteen years later, either I am not being sanctified (which is possible) or I need to rethink sanctification.

My hopes and thoughts are here:

Sanctification n. The process of Christian development that has more to do with how dependent you have become on the Lord, not necessarily with simply being “good.” Sanctification has more to do with how often you are broken before him, not your stoic ability to deal with pain. Sanctification has more to do with a recognition of yourweaknesses than of your strengths. Sanctification has more to do with repentance than with the things that don’t require repentance. In the end, sanctification amounts to the progressive movements you make toward the side of God because you have no where else to go.

But then there are the fruits of the spirit. Oh yeah, those. Doesn’t joy cancel out depression? Doesn’t peace defeat irritability? Doesn’t faith do away with being scared that something bad is going to happen to my kids? No perfect little red bow on this post.

I am trying to rethink sanctification because I have to.



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我覺得有點像樹的年輪。一次次在得到神的話的點滴
送交者: 無為 2012月07月21日18:49:22 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44
之後的喜悅和驕傲,一次次的老我的錯誤隨着暴露,把隱藏在內心極深的毛病暴露出來,或壓抑,或狂怒,或沒有理性的殘忍,或沒有希望的憂傷,最終都要默默地匍匐在神的腳前,一次次在生,如同一次次春天的到來。

我們真切地禱告,“為了你的名,求你除去我內心的一切錯誤”,於是在各種各樣的試探中,我們跌到再爬起,更加看清自己的問題。這些都是對照神的話的結果,並不是我們自己有什麼能力。

外表的潔淨代表着內心的潔淨,可以看清更多的道理,心裡如同主耶穌那樣思考,生活,神的靈就是這樣日漸住進了我們裡面,讓我們成聖。

我們成長的道路,從來就不是一揮而就。受洗和決志才是初生嬰兒的生命的開始。

聖靈可以如同鴿子降臨在主耶穌身上,一下就成了。而我們卻需要神通過現實生活的磨練。

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成聖是漸漸把眼光從自己轉向主耶穌的過程
送交者: j9 2012月07月20日22:51:10 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44
這是個舍己,“天天背起他的十字架”跟從主的過程。也是天天把更多的主權交給神,讓神santify我們的過程。神說我們喪掉生命,才能得到他神聖、聖潔的生命。

在這個過程中,甚至“結聖靈的果子”,“依靠主來服事”都不是我們的目的。這些是成聖的“副產品”。榮耀神才是成聖的目的。“你們或吃,或喝,都要為榮耀神而行” (林前10:30). 每天我們能在多一件事情上想到神的心意是什麼,神的命令是怎樣,我這樣做是否可以榮耀神,然後順服神,也許我們就在成聖的路上又進了一步。

又想到保羅的兩句話:“主啊,你是誰?”(徒22:8);“主啊,我當做什麼?”(v10)。認識神,順服神,榮耀神, I think this may be the complete picture of santification.

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做我這類的基督徒有時候免不了
送交者: 四季樹 2012月07月20日14:27:09 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44

會自我反省下,超過15年的基督徒,聖靈的果子在哪裡?或是否竭力要進入完全的地步,。。。

「所以我們應當離開基督道理的開端,竭力進到完全的地步。」(來六1)

十年前經歷神特別的奇妙(主要指經歷了一些過去沒有經歷的事),那是熱忱似火,心思很簡單或說對現實和自我都有種不切實際的幻想。那時想只要禱告,事情馬上就會有轉機和果效,那時候常常是我盼望、我想、我渴望、。。。

比如那時有位姐妹經歷丈夫的外遇,牧師帶領她禁食禱告,一天三次為她的婚姻祝福,我當時覺得這樣的痛苦一定會很快結束,。。。

有段時間教會大力宣傳《fire proof》那不電影,我當時想, 這還是一部不錯的電影,但內心覺得有點脫離現實,是的,神可以用40天來fix一個婚姻,但更有很多人經歷許多年的苦楚 。。。

個人感覺這篇文章還是寫出了我這類基督徒的一些心路歷程。

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成聖是個基督徒成熟過程
送交者: xiangpu 2012月07月20日14:14:51 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44
也是靠着主,train 你自己的過程。
首先是知識的長進: 一邊是對神的認識的增加,對自己認識的增加,越發熟悉何謂神喜悅,何謂神不喜悅。認識帶領和指導行動。
然後就是同時的籍着禱告和讀經及其他靈修活動,依靠神努力過討神喜悅的生活,這是一個純粹的training 過程,從自身的因為愛主的動機而來的願意(出於愛,不是怕,從恩典生出來的意願),主親自的引導,雖然有很多的失敗,回頭看還是有很大變化的。
不能用與目標比較來衡量成敗,而應該和起點對比。

____________________________________________

I understand his feeling BUT
送交者: gems 2012月07月19日14:32:28 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44
I understand his feeling BUT
The whole post is centered on one thing:
"I", "me", "my", "mine"

No mention of
Prayer, Jesus, 
Service, others, poor
....

All his rant is about "me", "me", "ME"!!!
no wonder he feels no joy, because he did not even know what "JOY" stands for "Jesus Others Yourself" in that order.

sorry for the cliche, I just got to use it :))

If sanctification is all about himself, he may be better fit to be a Buddhist :)) 

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LOL
送交者: mean 2012月07月20日06:49:16 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:I understand his feeling BUT 由 gems 於2012-07-19 14:32:28
I don't disagree with what you said at all. And there are certain comments on his blog that disagrees with his re-defining of doctrine as well. 

I believe that sanctification is a process in which one draws ever closer to Christ while seeing more and more of his own imperfections, thereby realizing all the more the brokenness of one's own condition, how utterly corrupt and hopeless we are without the guidance of GOD, or sometimes (or perhaps often), even with the guidance of GOD (due to our inherent disobedience). 

On the other hand, I think what he wrote is a perfect testimony in such a journey, whereby a person starts to realize that he doesn't have any answers, but only in GOD's infinite mercy, grace and not to mention forbearance does he persevere. This honesty and humility is, I think, lacking in some people's faiths, including mine own. His grievance, I suspect, is in part due to his struggle with depression as well as some tragedies in his family over the years and, if we are willing to listen, would serve us well in our faiths too. 

Yesterday I read about the startling spectacle that is the Episcopal Church convention, as well as some rather interesting (more like disturbing) responses to conservative criticism, both from liberal Christianity itself as well as from liberal members of Roman Catholicism, AND some posts on "experimental theology". As I was caught in a spirit of self-righteousness, re-reading this article helped bringing me down to earth. :)

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成聖中老我死亡的有關查經:
送交者: 雅1 2012月07月19日07:46:26 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:zt: Rethinking Sanctification 由 mean 於2012-07-18 17:01:44
我已經與基督同釘十字架,現在活着的,不再是我,乃是基督在我裡面活着;並且我如今在肉身活着,是因信 神的兒子而活,他是愛我,為我舍己。”(加2:20)

並且我如今在肉身活着,這個*肉身*是什麼呢?

繼續查全了,就明白了: 
歌 林 多 後 書 
5:1 我們原知道、我們這地上的帳棚若拆毀了、必得 神所造、不是人手所造、在天上永存的房屋。 
5:2 我們在這帳棚里嘆息、深想得那從天上來的房屋、好像穿上衣服. 
5:3 倘若穿上、被遇見的時候就不至於赤身了。 
5:4 我們在這帳棚里、嘆息勞苦、並非願意脫下這個、乃是願意穿上那個、好叫這必死的被生命吞滅了。 
5:5 為此培植我們的就是 神、他又賜給我們聖靈作憑據。 
5:6 所以我們時常坦然無懼、並且曉得我們住在身內便與主相離。 
5:7 因我們行事為人、是憑着信心、不是憑着眼見。 
5:8 我們坦然無懼、是更願意離開身體與主同住。 
5:9 所以無論是住在身內、離開身外、我們立了志向、要得主的喜悅。

這個肉身,讓我們“住在身內便與主相離”。這個肉身,是憑着信心被生命吞滅了的死亡,而不是*已經*被拆毀的帳棚,是等候得贖的。這個身體得救(老我消失)並不是所見的盼望,誰還盼望他所見的呢,正是因為這個身體老我還沒有得贖,我們才盼望那所不見的、就必忍耐等候。 
羅 馬 書 
8:23 不但如此、就是我們這有聖靈初結果子的、也是自己心裡嘆息、等候得着兒子的名分、乃是我們的身體得贖。 
8:24 我們得救是在乎盼望.只是所見的盼望不是盼望.誰還盼望他所見的呢。 
8:25 但我們若盼望那所不見的、就必忍耐等候

那麼什麼時候,這個肉身才真正地被拆毀,就是憑着眼見也不再阻攔我們與主同住呢?繼續查: 
歌 林 多 前 書15:23 但各人是按着自己的次序復活。初熟的果子是基督.以後在他來的時候、是那些屬基督的。

15:42 死人復活也是這樣.所種的是必朽壞的、復活的是不朽壞的. 
15:43 所種的是羞辱的、復活的是榮耀的.所種的是軟弱的、復活的是強壯的. 
15:44 所種的是血氣的身體、復活的是靈性的身體.若有血氣的身體、也必有靈性的身體。 
15:45 經上也是這樣記着說、『首先的人亞當、成了有靈的活人。』〔靈或作血氣〕末後的亞當、成了叫人活的靈。 
15:46 但屬靈的不在先、屬血氣的在先.以後才有屬靈的。 
15:47 頭一個人是出於地、乃屬土.第二個人是出於天。 
15:48 那屬土的怎樣、凡屬土的也就怎樣.屬天的怎樣、凡屬天的也就怎樣。 
15:49 我們既有屬土的形狀、將來也必有屬天的形狀。

15:50 弟兄們、我告訴你們說、血肉之體、不能承受 神的國.必朽壞的、不能承受不朽壞的。

15:51 我如今把一件奧秘的事告訴你們.我們不是都要睡覺、乃是都要改變、 
15:52 就在一霎時、眨眼之間、號筒末次吹響的時候.因號筒要響、死人要復活成為不朽壞的、我們也要改變。 
15:53 這必朽壞的、總要變成不朽壞的.〔變成原文作穿下同〕這必死的、總要變成不死的。 
15:54 這必朽壞的、既變成不朽壞的.這必死的、既變成不死的.那時經上所記、死被得勝吞滅的話就應驗了。

可見,這個肉身帳篷真正地被拆毀的日子是“以後在他來的時候”就是末日。那天,我們屬土的肉體就復活成為屬天的,當然,如果末日那天你還沒有歸土死亡,那麼你屬血氣的肉身要改變為屬靈的屬天的。那時候,我們才不用盼望,而是切實地享受“死被得勝吞滅”的應驗了。

因此,這個老我死亡,是明確知道耶穌基督已經在末日那天要為你做的永遠不會犯罪的屬天的身體,因這個信心的看見,我們盼望那天的到來。這個老我死亡,不是眼見的你現在活着的肉身居然已經不能不會犯罪了,不,肉身的老我依然阻攔你與主同住,你必須等候*等候*得着兒子的名分、乃是你的身體得贖。

這就是聖經一貫的“從施洗約翰的時候到如今、**天國是努力進入的***、努力的人就得着了”的教導,要有聖靈初結果子的我們,在肉身私慾老我和重生新我相爭的時候,依靠聖靈不聽從肉身私慾阻攔而順從聖靈,“弟兄們、我不是以為自己已經得着了.我只有一件事、就是忘記背後努力面前的、 向着標竿直跑、要得 神在基督耶穌里從上面召我來得的獎賞”的成聖生活。

既然事實是,住在身內便與主相離
送交者: 雅1 2012月07月19日07:58:33 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:成聖中老我死亡的有關查經: 由 雅1 於2012-07-19 07:46:26
所以那些關於“住在身內的時間越長,就與主越近”的概念都是虛假的。

比如施洗約翰,他臨死前的某段時間和主的距離,比他嬰兒時期和主的距離,要遠。他嬰兒的時候為看不見的耶穌歡欣鼓舞,他臨死前的某段時間在監獄裡還懷疑他見過的耶穌是不是那個令他歡欣鼓舞的耶穌呢。還需要耶穌讓他回憶聖經。

比如,彼得,單純順從神去素不相識的外幫人家裡,可後來有個時期,居然羞恥於和認識的外幫人吃飯,還需要保羅點醒。

想保羅也是很明白這個道理的,所以他說“弟兄們、我不是以為自己已經得着了.我只有一件事、就是忘記背後努力面前的、 向着標竿直跑、要得 神在基督耶穌里從上面召我來得的獎賞”

過去,無論你在主里多長,都是需要===》忘記《====背後的,因為你只要不死亡歸土你就拿“住在身內便與主相離”沒輒。

離主遠近不是看你認識主後住在身里的時間長短;離主遠近純粹是你今天此時是不是浸潤在神的話語裡,“常在我裡面,我的話就在你們裡面,凡你們所願意的,就給你們成就”,你今天此時越是浸潤在神的話語裡,你離主約近,就越成聖。

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I liked that
送交者: mean 2012月07月19日11:06:07 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答:這篇關於“成聖”的探討實在值得一讀和討論。 由 四季樹 於2012-07-18 19:51:11
the author sees and preaches that Biblical teaching is alive and is most meaningful when taken within the context of one's life, as opposed to a new set of laws used for criticism and judgment. Not saying whether he is right or wrong, but his idea of "rethinking sanctification" betrays a certain humility that is necessary (and critical) in all of us.
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