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【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎么篡改圣经的
送交者: nngzh 2023年12月09日08:55:12 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话
保罗说,教义又能救自己,又能救听你的人。(提前4:16)
送交者: 谨守 2023年12月08日17:10:31 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

提摩太前书 - 第 4 章 第 16 节
你要谨慎自己和自己的教训didaskalia教义, doctrine),要在这些事上恒心。因为这样行,又能自己,又能听你的人

KJV (NIV, AV): Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

ESV (LEB, ASV, NRSV, NET, REB, RSV, YLT): Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

老N干嚎十余载:教义不救人,只有神才救人。保罗给了假先知老N一个清脆响亮的大耳巴子,这节经文的didaskalia无论译作doctrine教义,还是译作teaching教导(或教训),都说明是救人的,因为传道人的行为再怎样好,也不可能救人,既不能救自己,也不能救别人,更何况保罗在这里点明是“”传道人的人。

倘若a church teaching is never identical to a divine truth itself, 那么某个教义或教导是不可能救人的。

你用“描红大法”来篡改原文主语,也太拙劣下作了吧
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日06:26:08 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 保罗说,教义又能救自己,又能救听你的人。(提前4:16) 由 谨守 于 2023-12-08 17:10:31

这是老宣的原文:大号加重绿色字形是俺加的,为的是揭穿老宣这“清纯”得象三岁孩子的伎俩


提摩太前书 - 第 4 章 第 16 节
你要谨慎自己和自己的教训didaskalia教义, doctrine),要在这些事上恒心。因为这样行,又能自己,又能听你的人。(nngzh注:中文没有把“救”的主语翻译出来)

KJV (NIV, AV): Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

ESV (LEB, ASV, NRSV, NET, REB, RSV, YLT): Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.


大家看到了吧,Save的主语是“你”(you),而老宣一描红,变成“教义”了。

老宣当众公然以这种下作手段篡改圣经原意来为其庸俗化、偶像化TULIP张目,第一,是老宣为其教义崇拜无所不用其极的邪恶本质的暴露;就算退一万步说,是其阅读真有问题,那么,他这种民科的学习能力也是低劣得令人发指啊。

TULIP作为人的教义,对教会和信徒灵命增长是好的,只要用的合宜。

但救人的不是教义 句号


愿神怜悯你。

污先生又开污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄
送交者: 谨守 2023月12月09日06:42:57 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 你用“描红大法”来篡改原文主语,也太拙劣下作了吧 由 nngzh 于 2023-12-09 06:26:08

无内容


“人不能救自己”就是你肆意用“描红大法”篡改圣经原文的理由?
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日08:39:50 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 污先生又开污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄 由 谨守 于 2023-12-09 06:42:57

一直在提醒你:以教义的先入为主来读圣经非常危险。


而你现在为强调教义而肆意篡改圣经原文的意思,就连错误的解经法都算不上,纯粹地在表演你糟蹋圣经的邪恶了。

愿神怜悯你

本节经文“你...能救自己...”这不是我说的,乃是圣灵说的
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日09:29:14 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 污先生又开污了,又冒出“金句”:人能救人😄 由 谨守 于 2023-12-09 06:42:57

原文的“救”,不但是第二人称单数,而且还是主动语态,放在上下文中,就是指提摩太。你否认得了吗?


这节经文,你连第二种读法的括号都找不出来的 :)


所以呢,你别跟我较劲。俺只是告诉你和你所学的“认信式以经解经”是错误的,存在着极大的隐患。

而这种解经方法是棵坏树的本质,则正是由你们几个这棵树上所结出来庸俗化偶像化TULIP网络流氓的坏果子让人看出来了。如此而已。


愿神怜悯你们几个。

再说一遍,教义的先入为主不是你篡改圣经的理由
送交者: nngzh 2023月12月09日09:53:35 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: Grudem's 提摩太在教义和操守上的坚忍会让他得救,这正 由 谨守 于 2023-12-09 09:42:45

怎么用教义来解释原文“你...能救你自己...”是一回事,而你将“你”篡改为“教义”则是另外一回事,前者尚有先入为主解经的弊端,而你所作的则是令人所不齿的解经劣迹。

愿神怜悯你

俺把老宣搜罗的对提摩太前书四章16节的解释都包括在这里,看看这些解释能不能成为他篡改经文的根据:

RC Sproul's
送交者: 谨守 2023月12月09日09:50:14 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎么篡改圣经的 由 nngzh 于 2023-12-09 08:55:12

4:15 all may see your progress. A reference to the advancement of Timothy’s spiritual life, his ministry, or perhaps both. Noteworthy is the fact that it is “progress,” not arrival. Although Christians must not perform good works for the sake of gathering others’ attention and admiration (Matt. 6:1), Christ’s reputation and believers’ spiritual growth are enhanced when growing maturity can be seen in the church’s leaders and members (3:7; Col. 4:5; 1 Thess. 4:12; Titus 2:5, 7, 8, 10).

4:16 on yourself and on the teaching. That Paul summarizes his instructions to Timothy in this manner is an indication of where the false teachers have gone astray, and, hence, where both ministers and Christians in general can go astray, both in character and in convictions.

you will saveGod alone grants salvation (v. 10; 1:1; 2:3), but He is pleased to use His people as instruments in bringing salvation to others. Salvation is not completed in our experience when we come to saving faith. To be sure, faith brings justification and the assurance of salvation, and having been justified, there is no doubt that we will be glorified and freed from the presence of sin, which is the consummation of our salvation (Rom. 8:28–30). Faith also begins the lifelong process of sanctification by which we are conformed to Christ that continues until the Christian’s final glorification in heaven. In other words, everyone who has been justified will certainly be sanctified and glorified, but whereas our justification is complete the moment we believe, our sanctification is an ongoing process that is not completed until we die. Even then, we do not receive our full and final glorification until the resurrection of our bodies, although in heaven we will be free of sin as we await the final resurrection (Rom. 8:1–30).

Theologically speaking, salvation refers to the entire work of God’s redemption that encompasses predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification, although the biblical writers sometimes use the terms “salvation” and “saved” as synonyms for one of the aforementioned aspects of what the Lord does in redeeming us. For example, when Paul says that “by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast,” he is using the term “saved” as a synonym for “justified.” By grace we have been justified by faith, which is not our own doing but the gift of God and not the result of our works.

yourself. Sanctification is a work of God that includes the cooperative activity of the Christian. However, God’s work in His people guarantees that they will cooperate (Phil. 2:12, 13). The Lord never fails to sanctify those whom He justifies. Having changed our hearts in regeneration, our natural and inevitable response is to walk by the Spirit and put sin to death.


 R. C. Sproul, ed., The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust, 2015), 2160–2161.

NICNT's
送交者: 谨守 2023月12月09日10:30:35 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎么篡改圣经的 由 nngzh 于 2023-12-09 08:55:12

The future tense of the verb (“will save”) is not a denial that salvation is also a present aspect of Christian existence (cf. 1:15; 2 Tim 1:9); rather, Paul envisions the potential influence that Timothy’s life and teaching hold both for his own and the church’s greater realization of God’s salvation. Tying the fortunes of these two parties together is also Pauline (1 Cor 10:33; 9:22); as Paul’s delegate, Timothy exists to serve others, and his realization of the fullness of salvation is incumbent upon a faithfulness that stretches from personal character to the quality of his teaching and service to others.

Thus salvation through Christ, as mediated by the gospel and “the teaching” to “those who hear” responsively, is a present reality.


 Philip H. Towner, The Letters to Timothy and Titus, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2006), 328.

NIGTC's
送交者: 谨守 2023月12月09日10:42:35 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎么篡改圣经的 由 nngzh 于 2023-12-09 08:55:12

4:16 This verse presents the final exhortation of the section: ἔπεχε σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς. With this exhortation comes the reason why Paul is so persistent and so concerned, because what is at stake is salvation for Timothy and his hearers.

ἔπεχω in its intransitive form takes the dative of the “thing” and means here “give attention to.” There are two things to which Timothy is to give attention (cf. Acts 20:28). The first is himself (σεαυτῷ), reflecting what Paul expressed in v. 7 (γύμναζε δὲ σεαυτὸν πρὸς εὐσέβειαν), and the second is διδασκαλίᾳ, the “teaching” that Timothy has received and followed (see v. 6), that he is to communicate from the scriptures (v. 13), and that ultimately is from Christ (6:3).

ἐπιμένω used figuratively, as here (ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς), means to “continue, persist (in), persevere” (with dative, BAGD). Plural αὐτοῖς probably refers to the nearest possible antecedents, σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, although it may refer to the several items in vv. 6–15. But even these items may be summarily referred to as personal piety (vv. 7ff., 12) and public ministry (vv. 6, 11, 13), which could be succinctly stated as σεαυτῷ καὶ τῇ διδασκαλίᾳ, so that either understanding amounts to the same thing. ἐπιμένω with reference to διδασκαλίᾳ refers to persistent fidelity to the teaching and a constant urging of it upon his hearers, as Luke records Paul and Barnabas doing: “Speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43; cf. Rom. 11:22). Paul is reminding Timothy that he must embrace and personally persevere in that which he teaches (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24–27).

The concept of perseverance as essential to salvation, which Paul presents in the concluding words of this verse, has been stated by Paul with this same verb ἐπιμένω in both Rom. 11:22 (“if you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off”) and Col. 1:22, 23 (“to present you before him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard”) and with a different verb in 1 Cor. 15:1, 2 (but with σῴζω as here; cf. in Heb. 3:6, 14). Paul’s insistence on holding fast the “word” in 1 Cor. 15:2 and on perseverance in the “teaching” (διδασκαλίᾳ) are synonymous concepts.

That which Paul has so forcefully exhorted Timothy to do (τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν) will bring about the much to be hoped for outcome: καὶ σεαυτὸν σώσεις καὶ τοὺς ἀκούοντάς σου. γάρ governs the main clause with its key verb σώσεις, and not the participial phrase, τοῦτο ποιῶν, which serves as an introductory recapitulation of the preceding words. Thus γάρ, “for,” introduces the ultimate conclusion of the section and affords the reason for such exhortation. τοῦτο, which usually refers to something comparatively near at hand, likely refers to the immediately previous exhortations within v. 16, especially ἐπίμενε, the call to perseverance. The sum of what has been exhorted is now described with the present active participle ποιῶν simply as “doing” (2 Tim. 4:5 is an especially relevant parallel).

The promised result, σώσεις …, is twofold, “both yourself and your hearers.” The operative verb is σῴζω, which has as a general meaning, “save, keep from harm, preserve, rescue” (BAGD). Although there are those who argue that the salvation is from theological error, i.e., salvation in the sense of preservation (Bengel, Gromacki, Vine, Wuest), most commentators take σώσεις soteriologically and eschatologically (Alford, Bernard, Brox, Bürki, Calvin, Earle, Ellicott, Fairbairn, Gealy, Guthrie, Hendriksen, Hiebert, Huther, Kelly, Kent, Lenski, Moellering, Robertson, Scott, Simpson, van Oosterzee, and White; also J. Schneider, NIDNTT III, 215; W. Foerster, TDNT VII, 995). The other occurrences of σῴζω in the PE (1 Tim. 1:15; 2:4, 15; Tit. 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; 4:18) are clearly soteriological in orientation. It is true that διδασκαλία does deliver from error and bring to truth, but that seems to be included in the ultimate goal expressed in σῴζω (cf. 2:4; so also van Oosterzee). The salvation of the hearers is elsewhere depicted by Paul as the central goal of the ministry (cf. especially 1 Cor. 15:1, 2; 9:22; 2 Tim. 2:10; 4:5), and it is that hope in the living God who is the Savior of all believers that Paul has presented as the centerpiece of encouragement for Timothy in this section.

That a human being, here Timothy, is the subject of σῴζω is a phenomenon found elsewhere in Paul (Rom. 11:14; 1 Cor. 9:22; 7:16a, b), in James (5:20), in Jude (23), and with Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Mk. 8:35b par. Lk. 9:24b). Thus we see that the NT speaks of human agents in addition to the ultimate and absolute sourceGod himself (cf. the very helpful comments of Calvin). Jesus speaks of a man saving his life (Mk. 8:35 par. Lk. 9:24: σώσει αὐτήν= τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ, equivalent to σεαυτόν here) by the decisive act of “losing his life” for Jesus and the gospel, i.e., the surrender of saving faith (here by the perseverance that marks true faith; cf. again Col. 1:23 especially, and also 1 Cor. 9:24–27).

τοὺς ἀκουόντάς σου, “your hearers,” is the natural way to refer to those who are the recipients of the gospel, since it was communicated orally. To Timothy’s hearers the promise is extended with the same requirement for them as for Timothy, perseverance (ἐπίμενε αὐτοῖς). Timothy’s διδασκαλία, like Paul’s, is to encourage such perseverance (Col. 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:1, 2) for those whose ears are open to hear and thus can be truly called hearers (cf. 2 Tim. 4:1–5). Lenski summarizes well when he says that God alone saves (v. 10), yet he saves by means, “and it is thus that one who uses and applies these means can very properly be said to save both himself and others.”


 George W. Knight, The Pastoral Epistles: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1992), 210–212.


Baker's
送交者: 谨守 2023月12月09日14:44:07 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答: 【立此存照】看看庸俗化偶像化TULIP的老宣是怎么篡改圣经的 由 nngzh 于 2023-12-09 08:55:12

16. Look to yourself and to the teaching, persevere in them.

Holy living and sound teaching must go together if Timothy (or, for that matter, any apostolic representative, any minister, any elder, etc.) is to be a blessing. Hence, Paul admonishes Timothy to continue to focus (his mind, understood) on himself, that is, on his own duties, his own gift, his own privilege to go to the depths of God’s promise; particularly also upon the teaching (his own and that of others in the Ephesus district). He must stay on or persevere in them, that is, in holy living and in vigilance with respect to teaching. The promise is: “for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” To be sure, a man is saved by grace, through faith; not by works (Titus 3:3; cf. Eph. 2:6–8); yet, since holy living and sound teaching are a fruit of faith, Paul is able to say that “by doing this” Timothy will save himself and his hearers. It is along the path of holy living and diligence in teaching and in watching over the life and teaching of others, that salvation (both present and future; see on 1 Tim. 1:15) is obtained. Besides, God promises a special reward to his faithful ministers, yes, to all his faithful witnesses (Dan. 12:3; Matt. 13:43; James 5:20); and threatens with severe punishment the unfaithful ones (Ezek. 33:7, 8).


 William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, Exposition of the Pastoral Epistles, vol. 4, New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953–2001), 160.



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      N式谨慎:统统都是祭肉之争而已😄老N你救了自己和污队友吗?  /无内容 - 谨守 12/10/23 (7658)
      😄😄😄😄😄老N你越来越污了,死翘翘是铁定了😄  /无内容 - 谨守 12/10/23 (7734)
      😄😄😄😄😄救人的是提摩太,而不是提摩太谨慎的教义?  /无内容 - 谨守 12/10/23 (7738)
    很显然木有!因为你是本坛“污秽的言语”之王👎  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (6345)
  Preaching the Word - 谨守 12/09/23 (6586)
    这篇的观点跟古德恩的一样,不过更详细  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (6572)
  Baker's - 谨守 12/09/23 (6618)
  NIGTC's - 谨守 12/09/23 (7299)
      你想得出什么结论吧?是“冯”救人,还是“冯东西”救人?  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7219)
      你总不能终身只做一个“贴匠”,不是吗?😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7194)
      你想得出什么结论吧?😂这些学者得出来的是什么结论?  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7217)
  NICNT's - 谨守 12/09/23 (7335)
  RC Sproul's - 谨守 12/09/23 (7432)
        这就是你篡改经文的理由? - nngzh 12/09/23 (7437)
          污先生金句:圣灵使用冯东西救了许多灵魂,但冯东西是人的吩咐  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7386)
          那救了许多灵魂的是“冯东西”,还是“冯”???😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7383)
          圣灵说的,人可以自救????😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7407)
            回答过了,你将来可以问圣灵为什么本节经文说“你..能救自己” - nngzh 12/09/23 (7401)
              这就是我们为什么需要有纯正教义的缘故☝️  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7378)
                所以你是自称“纯正教义”的坏树所结出的坏果子。 - nngzh 12/09/23 (7370)
                  是传道人救了听他的人,还是“道”(教义)救了听众???😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7341)
              参见Grudem & Sproul's comments  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7376)
                他们的解释,是你篡改经文的根据吗? - nngzh 12/09/23 (7382)
                  他们串改了经文吗?😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7342)
          圣灵说的,人可以自救????😂  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7398)
  开专栏,太好了👍  /无内容 - 谨守 12/09/23 (7448)
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