对于一个信仰教义的争执，不应该发展到信某种教义就是得救或不得救的地步的结论。
从基督教信仰历史上来说，信郁金香的很多前辈是非常敬虔的，谁能够否认司布真和爱德华兹呢？加尔文派中有许多祷告勇士，我还蛮喜欢读他们的传记的。
从基督教的信仰来说，得救的唯一途径是信耶稣基督得救——这在大家都没有问题，郁金香没有否认耶稣基督是神的儿子，没有否认经上关于神的儿子耶稣基督的任何描述或定义。这个立场，过去我已经公开表态过了，好像不需要多说。因为beiqian的话，我再次重申一下，希望能够大家清楚。
郁金香问题是理解神的救恩到底是怎样分布给人的，属于那种总结得有点道理，又不完全合乎道理的鸡肋。但是，我认为如今的加尔文派走到“先重生后信”已经离开加尔文原来的教义了，加尔文自己认为信在重生前，我以前已经引用过他的文章。再引用一次：
在他的Commentary on John, Charpter 1, John1:13 确实这么说了一句：
It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by
making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the
contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be
placed later. I reply, that both statements perfectly agree;
because by faith we receive the incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,) by which we are born again to a new and
divine life.
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It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by
making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the
contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be
placed later. I reply, that both statements perfectly agree;
because by faith we receive the incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23,)
by which we are born again to a new and
divine life. And yet faith itself is a work of the Holy
Spirit, who dwells in none but the children of God. So then, in
various respects, faith is a part of our regeneration, and an
entrance into the kingdom of God, that he may reckon us among
his children. The illumination of our minds by the Holy Spirit
belongs to our renewal, and thus faith flows from regeneration
as from its source; but since it is by the same faith that we
receive Christ, who sanctifies us by his Spirit, on that account
it
is said to be the beginning of our adoption. Commentary on John, Chapter1, John1:13,
关于他老人家的那点faith在前面还是在后面，他实在肚子里有货，却茶壶里煮饺子，没倒清楚。后来我读他的另一本解经书，终于搞明白了：
Our minds never become so firmly established in
the truth of God as to resist all the temptations of Satan, until we
have been confirmed in it by the Holy Spirit. The true
conviction which believers have of the word of God, of their own
salvation, and of religion in general, does not spring from the
judgment of the flesh, or from human and philosophical arguments,
but from the sealing of the Spirit, who imparts to their
consciences such certainty as to remove all doubt. The foundation
of faith would be frail and unsteady, if it rested on human
wisdom; and therefore, as preaching is the instrument of faith,
so
the Holy Spirit makes preaching efficacious.
But is it not the faith itself which is here
said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the
sealing. I
answer, there are two operations of the Spirit in faith,
corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it
enlightens,
and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is
knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction,
which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, I have said, are the
work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare
that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel,
were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Commentary on Ephesians, Chapter 1, 1:13
结论，本坛改革宗实在是搞臭了改革宗的名声，一窍不通，还老想高举自己根本弄不懂的教义，结果就是华人的那点老祖宗文化遗传的宿命论，加上大男子主义等等臭裹脚布捡过来，还以为自己是信奉加尔文主义，把自己弄成加尔文讨厌的Papist类似的Calvinist。
beiqian大声嚷嚷，说我割裂圣灵和圣经等等，一窍不通还特有宗教狂热，瞧瞧人家加尔文说的很清楚，圣灵啊圣灵！如果没有圣灵的sealing，你就算不得真信，回去好好再读我的帖子，对着我查的经文自己再查一遍。关于加尔文老人家，他写的东西有些我还蛮赞同的，不知道他的那套预定论逻辑是否当时也是被天主教徒们逼急了发挥出来的，因为当时天主教徒们（当然我指是Papists们）对新教徒的逼迫是很残忍的，同情一把。等我找点时间，把加尔文的教义研究一下，再狠狠地批你们，直到让你们体无完肤。
至于信郁金香就不得救，本坛无人共鸣，一枝独秀类型，不值得花时间和精力。我指望版主认真考虑一下如何管理论坛，暂时，大家各自理智管理自己吧。祝大家周末快乐！
