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都發生在eternal past,你想說誰先?
送交者: 從上而生 2019月10月31日11:48:37 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話
回  答: 異端搞出兩個預定:預定子,預定人。再問阿古哪個先預定?👈repentant 於 2019-10-31 11:24:01

ZT:弗1:4“就如神從創立世界以前,在基督里揀選了我們”
送交者: 從上而生 2019年10月30日06:12:42 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

1:4a–c Because he chose us in him before the foundation of the world (καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου). Throughout the remainder of this passage (1:4–14), Paul gives a series of reasons why God is so worthy to be praised. The first refers to God’s choosing of his people in eternity past.

The conjunction he uses to introduce this (καθώς) is often interpreted as a comparative adverb, its most common function: “just as he chose us …” (NASB; NRSV) or “even as he chose us …” (ESV). But it makes better contextual sense to take it as a causal conjunction (so the TNIV and NIV, which translate with “for”) and see it as giving the basis for the praise.6 The force of this “because” carries throughout 1:4–14 with the rest of the passage providing important reasons why God is so worthy of blessing and praise.

The principal reason for the praise is that “he [God] chose us” (ἐξελέξατο). This term was commonly used in the LXX for God’s choice of individuals: He chose Abraham (Neh 9:7), Aaron (Ps 105:26 [104:26]), Moses (Sirach 45:4), David (1 Kings 11:34; Ps 78:70 [77:70]), and Eli’s father (1 Sam 2:28). Most importantly, he chose Jacob/Israel (Isa 41:8; 44:1–2) to set his love upon him and his descendants (Deut 7:7; 10:15) and for Jacob to be his own special possession (14:2). The verb is also used to speak of God’s choosing Christ. When God spoke from the cloud at the scene of the transfiguration, he said, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him” (Luke 9:35). The latter case, of coursedoes not mean that God has chosen Christ to experience redemption and the forgiveness of sins as is in view for the elect here, but that he chose Christ to fulfill a particular and indispensible role for securing salvation.

The usage of the verb suggests that God chooses individuals and together they comprise the group (“us”; ἡμᾶς). Throughout this letter there is an oscillation between the individual and the group. In the ethical exhortation of chapters 4–6, Paul addresses the group (“you”; second person plural), but implicit with each admonition is the personal responsibility of each individual member of the group. Thus, when he admonishes them to “speak truth” (4:25), “be kind” (4:32) or “walk in love” (5:2) using the second person plural, each individual is expected to receive this as a command directly to him or her and to bring their conduct in line with these virtues. At times, Paul can make this more explicit, such as when he says “speak truth, each one of you” (4:25), but this is for emphasis. An individual application is present with each second person plural exhortation.

Similarly, the election, redemption, and salvation truths of Ephesians 1–2 are stated to be true of the corporate group of believers whom Paul addresses (“we” [Paul and his readers] and “you” [the readers, or sometimes, the Gentile readers]), but there is always implicit an individual application. To say, then, that “the concept of election and destining here is corporate”9 is correct in what it affirms, but wrong in what it denies. Paul is affirming that his believing readers have been chosen by God, but he is not denying that God has individually chosen them to be in a relationship with himself, as the choice of the verb strongly suggests. Individual election is also necessitated by the metaphor of adoption that he uses two lines later (1:5a). In the Roman world, groups were not adopted by a paterfamilias, only individuals. Nevertheless, the Father is forming these individuals into a family; thus, a strong corporate element is retained, but not to the exclusion of the individual.

When Paul says that God chose us “in him” (ἐν αὐτῷ), he is referring to Christ’s participation in God’s act of choosingJust as Christ was involved with the Father in the creation of the world (“by him all things were created”; Col 1:16; see also John 1:3), so also Christ participated with the Father in choosing people for himself.

Because this sovereign and gracious act took place “before the foundation of the world,” the text therefore implicitly teaches the preexistence of Christ. God’s choosing took place in eternity past. John uses the same expression (πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου) to speak of the love of the Father for the Son prior to his creation of the universe (John 17:24). Peter uses it to describe God’s foreknowledge of how he would save the world through his Son (1 Pet 1:20).

The idea of God choosing a people for himself in eternity past is taught elsewhere in the Bible. The psalmist prays that God will “remember the people you purchased long ago (ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς)” (Ps 74:2 TNIV [73:2 LXX]). The Greek prepositional phrase could be rendered, “from the beginning of time”; the corresponding Hebrew expression (qedem) is best rendered, “from prehistoric times.”

A variety of Jewish texts also speak of God’s choosing his people before creation. Joseph and Asenath 8:9, for instance, speaks of Israel as “your people whom you have chosen before all (things) came into being.” The idea of God’s choosing people in a pretemporal period may also be present in Rev 13:8, where one reading of the syntax is that the names of believers are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world (ESV [“everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain”]; NLT; NASB; NRSV). The fact that God did his choosing in this pretemporal period strongly underlines his initiative and grace in salvation.

Since Paul is addressing a group of people who already comprise the “us,” he does not address the more theoretical question of people who decline the offer or refuse to put their faith in Christ. Similarly, neither here nor elsewhere in Ephesians does Paul take up the question of whether God rejects those whom he does not choose. As Lincoln notes, the text “provokes absolutely no speculation about the negative side of election, reprobation.”


 Arnold, C. E. (2010). Ephesians (pp. 79–81). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.



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  約3:15告訴你: 神預先愛世人=神預先定下賜獨生子 ! /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (102)
    創世前,神先愛的不是具體人!! 是世人,=賜下基督給世人  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (69)
      這頭老母豬不知道揀選是十個西瓜選一個的意思嗎?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (61)
        劈死的就是父先愛具體人的異端! 怒火燒死你!👈  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (48)
          你公公婆婆預先愛了你這個淫婦,你不承認他們對你的大愛?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (61)
            阿古的噩夢: 父預先平息忿怒了嗎?  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (65)
              你公公婆婆預先平息了他們對你淫亂的忿怒?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (45)
                阿古認錯就好!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (75)
        更何況基督也參與揀選了,啜,小A眼力真棒,難怪你這麼蠢 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (69)
          基督怎麼選? 沒贖罪就選了? 蠢貨  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (79)
            揀選乃創世以前早已完成了的作為,救贖是時空中的作為,你這母豬 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (56)
              基督不贖罪,父就不生氣的選你了? 你拉上基督也沒有用!👈  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (60)
                你公公婆婆知道你會淫亂的,這不等於他們那時不愛你,更不是因為 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (78)
                  阿古的噩夢: 父預先平息忿怒了嗎?  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (74)
                    沒有  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (58)
                      你認錯就好! 😊先愛你滾一邊去!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (55)
                        請問神的忿怒已經平息了,你還需要救贖大愛嗎?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (69)
                          所以不是先愛具體人,具體人沒認罪悔改,耶穌也沒贖罪平息怒火。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (71)
                            也就是說人們沒有人罪悔改前上帝根本就不愛世人?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (92)
                              創世前父既然忿怒就不愛具體人,但愛手造的人類,故基督救贖。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (81)
                              根本沒有父在創世前先愛你具體人一說! 做夢吧。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (65)
                              具體人不悔改,神就不愛。神先愛世人=就是神預定基督認人悔改!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (70)
                  阿古的噩夢: 父預先平息忿怒了嗎?  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (83)
                  父平息怒火,基督必須贖罪! 劈死你!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (58)
                    是的,100%同意,so what?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (75)
                      基督不贖罪,父就不生氣的選你了? 你拉上基督也沒有用!👈  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (51)
                        父忿怒和祂揀選愛你,有衝突嗎?父不忿怒,你還需要救贖大愛嗎?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (66)
                          不是先愛具體人,具體人沒認罪悔改,耶穌也沒贖罪平息怒火。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (74)
                            神愛人的目的不就是為了祂的公義得到滿足嗎?神愛的對象就是忿怒 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (66)
                              神愛的具體人需要耶穌釘十字架+信基督贖罪!創世前不愛具體人。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (50)
                              正因為神愛的具體人需要耶穌釘十字架,所以創世前不愛具體人。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (82)
                              創世前神愛的世人人類,不是具體人! 蠢貨。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (72)
                              哪個腦補昏蛋說的?😅 你反駁什麼? 垃圾!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (69)
                  創世前拉上基督父就不忿怒了? 就愛你了? 騙自己呢?😂  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (70)
              這叫好比你公公婆婆計劃要你老公娶你這個必定給他兒子戴綠帽子的 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (82)
        那不是父揀選人,是基督。棄子而選的貨!😂  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (66)
          父神在創世以前在基督里揀選=父揀選+基督參與揀選,你的,明白 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (74)
            聖經哪裡說基督在創世前揀選人了? 做夢嘛  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (70)
              所以說,在基督里揀選就是基督參與揀選是一個意思,正如父創造乃 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (40)
                乾嚎了? 認錯吧!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (52)
            篡改經文! 劈死你!👈  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (57)
            創世前,基督是中保嗎? 不是中保,怎麼在基督里?  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (92)
              所以說,在基督里揀選就是基督參與揀選是一個意思,正如父創造乃 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (58)
                創世前拉上基督父就不忿怒了? 就愛你了? 騙自己呢?😂  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (70)
                在時空中的基督里揀選! 當然基督揀選!  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (66)
                  “揀選”的作為在創世以前早已“完結”,醒醒,老母豬  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (64)
                    父在耶穌贖罪前+並且在具體人信耶穌為他贖罪前,不可能平息怒火 - repentant 10/31/19 (56)
                      誰說神的忿怒那時已經平息了,你公公婆婆要他們兒子娶你不等於 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (67)
                        父愛具體人(你們,我們),必須在人愛耶穌之後。 約翰福音 - repentant 10/31/19 (70)
                        又砸死自己了! 神忿怒就是不愛阿古昏蛋,需要基督替死!😂  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (69)
                          思考題:如果神的忿怒已經平息了,還需要神救贖的大愛嗎?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (70)
                            蠢貨! 父預定基督救贖=打算平息怒火。平息怒火必在時空中☝️  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (75)
                              是啊,那不是神set his love upon us嗎? - 從上而生 10/31/19 (81)
                                不是先愛具體人,具體人沒認罪悔改,耶穌也沒贖罪平息怒火。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (75)
                                  神愛人的目的不就是為了祂的公義得到滿足嗎?神愛的對象就是忿怒 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (60)
                    所以阿古創世前就是義人了嗎?😂  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (48)
            哪個腦補昏蛋說的?😅  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (54)
    你是說約3:16吧?不是15節吧?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (90)
      對。  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (71)
    創世前愛的不是具體人!! 是世人☝️ 棄子而定的貨!👈  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (79)
  約3:15告訴你: 神愛世人=神賜獨生子 砸死自己吧! /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (73)
      哪裡矛盾了! 約3:15告訴你: 神預先愛世人=神預先定下賜  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (66)
        這都哪跟哪啊?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (73)
  這蠢貨不明白只有一個預定: 父預定基督=救人。 /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (39)
    eternal past裡面有先後?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (54)
        預定子幹什麼?不是救贖預定得救的人嗎?兩者不同時發生?  /無內容 - 從上而生 10/31/19 (53)
          謝謝阿古認錯!😅  /無內容 - repentant 10/31/19 (56)
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