| 網友討論：廢除牧師制度的好處 |
| 送交者: 喜來登 2005年09月30日13:58:23 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 |
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- 廢除牧師制度有不少好處，現歸納六點，歡迎討論補充： 1.更符合聖經，既然聖經里提到的“牧師”僅一處，且不是指神給教會所設立的職分而言，是指神所賜的牧養恩賜所說，那麼現在教會裡的牧師職分的設立有名不正言不順的嫌疑。 2.徹底擺脫神學院對教會職分設立的干擾，神學院統治教會的時代將一去不復返。現在不少教會招聘牧師均以某某宗某某派神學院畢業為條件，從招聘到這一招聘條件都無聖經根據。 3.避免僱工現象，牧師一旦被按立，走到哪裡都是牧師。因此有些牧師毫無顧忌頻頻跳槽，更有的牧師將中小教會財務耗光後再奔高枝兒而去，搞得一些中小教會苦不堪言，其中也不乏分裂教會的。而長老就不一樣，離開自己的本地教會，人家或許尊你一句長老，但是想給別的教會接着做長老，就沒有牧師那麼容易。這使得長老們更能死心塌地地服侍本地的教會。 約翰福音： 10:11 我是好牧人，好牧人為羊捨命。 4.可以避免神學院的一些僵化刻板教條的東西對教會靈性上的摧殘，今後神學畢業生可以在教會做教師，教導知識，但是要想牧養教會，必須根據聖經，從神所賜的牧養恩賜，屬靈程度以及教會服事，生活態度是否端正等方面重新考察，神學院的成績單不在考量範圍內。 5.恢復初期教會各種職分，各種恩賜，個個肢體互相搭配共同建造基督身體的活潑局面。剷除由於神學系統的不同而造成的派系紛爭讓基督做我們教會的頭，而不是什麼神學思想。 6. 徹底堵死由神學院直升牧師這條科舉之路，可以阻止那些僅是出於職業選擇讀神學以及沒有牧養恩賜只是擅長讀書考試的人才魚目混珠到教會的牧養治理層，給教會也給自己帶來很大的困擾。 片兒警：羊兒加油，我在這裡也給你搖唇鼓舌 不過，事先說好，我對現在的教會裡要設立使徒，先知的職分是有保留的。我基本贊同記載在聖經里的使徒先知們是我們教會建造的根基，除此以外不可以再設立其他的使徒和先知。 等到革命成功後，羊兒你這先知型的人才註定要孤獨的：） caleb：不加油了,革命是可以的,烈士我是不當的:) 1.教會不設牧師,總領的牧人要不要?要的話,無所謂被叫成什麼,叫牧師無可無不可.不要總領的話,應該怎麼運作?集體領導?三權分立?輪流執政?是人就不可能無偏差,需要一定製衡機制消減不必要的人事誤操作. 2.神學院到底有沒有存在必要?我個人認為有必要,尤其對教會領袖持守真道有必要.所謂見多才能不怪.真理知識的狹隘淺薄對一個領袖來說,往往是一害一群的致命傷.但是目前神學院的運作和控制功能也附帶來很多弊端.神學院本身應該是以神為首領,充滿神膏的地方,去那兒的人從靈到知識都應是有深度的被澆灌,在真理上不斷堅立,生命上不斷被建造成長.現在的神學院有多少能起到這樣功用?去學的人有多少能這樣成才的?這一方面是機制,另方面也是教導者和學生素質使然.世俗的名校對師資和學生生源千挑萬選,都是挑最上乘的,為什麼為神所開的學校就常有馬馬虎虎,魚龍通吃的敷衍塞責的事? 3.派系紛爭是神恨惡的,這不是今天才成的局面,而是歷史的傳承,從耶穌時和之前就有,我們如果改革,哪裡是起點,要改到哪裡? 我以前就這麼幹了許多年,很熟練.可是比起十個手指打字的,先天就不足了. 你講的,在現有的基礎上,確實是有道理的. 可是如果跳出這個現有的模式,想想十個手指打字的情況呢? 首先如果立足於傳道人要自己訓練培養,其實這應該是完全可行的,但這不是牧師的責任,所以牧師就會需要教師的幫助了. 牧養和傳福音又是側重點非常不同的,如果把傳福音的需要再提出來,那麼就需要傳福音恩賜的幫助了.分辨恩賜,鼓勵安慰勸勉代禱的呢,先知的恩賜就出來了.使徒恩賜是用來拓荒的. 這樣看來,神學院,空降傳道人到現有的教會這些做法都是因為只用一個指頭敲字的弊端. 有些科舉出來的牧師，沒有為羊捨命的心只是僱工的心態，對教會的發展造成了嚴重的損害。我知道的一家教會原來兩百多會員，經過六任牧師走馬燈似的輪換，現在會員只剩下幾十人了，如果有牧師把一些中小教會作為自己攀高枝兒的跳板，那更是可惡。危難的時候撇下羊群先溜的牧師也大有人在，教會真的不需要這樣的僱工了。 candle：這個俺太同意了.牧會是一個極重的位子,要相當神的恩膏和生命成熟的人才挑得起來.這是屬靈戰場的領袖,屬靈品格要求極高,不是插根翎子的阿貓阿狗就能跳大神的. 看到過你說的不愛羊的僱工了,濫竽充數,害人不淺.也看到無德無能之輩小蔥裝大蒜,自害害人. followHIM：不是制度的問題，是人的問題如果你們教會聘閃作牧師，不是神學院的錯，不是閃的錯，是你們自己的錯。 片兒警：你如果真的followHIM你就應該知道聖經里沒有神學院的位置，更沒有由神學院到牧者這條科舉之路，怎麼能不是制度問題呢？ 852：你們教會就不聘神學生,不就結了:)有誰壓着你們非聘不可嗎? 說實在話,現在北美的這種專業化教會制度牧師是不是神學生,到後來的結局都差不多:) followHIM：聖經里沒有神學院的位置的聖經根據在哪裡？ 所以你們要去、使萬民作我的門徒、奉父子聖靈的名、給他們施洗．〔或作給他們施洗歸於父子聖靈的名〕 我建議大家一起讀這本書： 我們都有可能做教會的長老(也許現在在這裡的已經有很多了) 耶穌時代的教會是有拉比的。 耶穌就有這個身份。 保羅就是加馬列門下的高才生。名牌神學院畢業。 神學院是先知創的。沒有文士那裡來得聖書。 就憑網上幾位大蝦嚷嚷來嚷嚷去，就要廢神學。 這就是沒有化幾年時間全身心投入去學習，出現的 xinmin：You have said something good:-)) Even in OT times, there were classes of prophets. 片兒警 and caleb and some other people have expressed their disapproval of seminary. That is a good starting point to debate. But the key issue is never really seminary! It is the Church, stupid! (Please do not take offense at this slang) To make matters worse, the problem is you and I and he and she that constitute our local church! WE have failed much more than seminary! If our local church cannot equip saints, no good shepherds (or pastors if you prefer that title) will ever step out to serve. Those who are against seminary as a system for pastoral training may have not had much understanding about seminary. We often use double standard in our thinking. For example, we spend our prime youthful years (up to 20 years or so) of life to receive education (from elementary to middlde to high school, to college and to graduate school and then continuing education). For what? Is that not for our adequate equipping to serve in certain capacities in society? So why are we having problem with stringent theological and professional training for christian ministry? Or you may argue that church setting is good enough to train ministers. But you just shoot on your own feet by saying that. Then why do not you or many other people in church setting rise up to the challenge of serving others? Why not? Are we ready to admit that we are wasteful product of the church? Apparently WE the CHURCH as a whole have failed on many fronts. The church is somewhat good at converting people (after all, 1/3 of the world population claim they are christians!), poor at discipling the converts into Christ's disciples, even poorer or have nearly failed at making only a preciously small number of disciple-makers!! One of my seminary professors said matter-of-factly in the very first class that he expects some of us will find out, when the class is over, that we may not have God's calling, spiritual gifts and/or character to be a minister! To say that seminary does not know better than you or I is laughable. If we have to laugh, please laugh at our own failures and inadequacy, not others. We all have a picture of an ideal church where every saint is spirit-filled and passionate at pursuing God, imitating Christ, and serving others. It is better if we are a doer than a doing-nothing critic. Let's all press on toward that common goal in Christ. caleb：你是老油條了,當然這麼說了 因為你說了STUPID,我覺得你是老愚昧. 對於後面的新人來說,你這麼說是不負責任的. 你們的教授想要說的,和我們在這裡討論的,就是同一回事. 我們在論壇上才如此討論批評,在教會裡面還不是一樣要服事.你是趟過了這渾水的,當然可以這麼說.可是你難到就沒有想過,你趟的渾水,後面的人不一定要趟的. 教會就是因為把訓練傳道人的工作推給了神學院,才會造成教師的缺乏.所以門徒訓練也缺乏.如果是一級一級在教會裡面建立起來,大家都是這麼鍛煉上來,就是一個新的局面了. xinmin：Did we misunderstand each other? 老油條? What does that mean? An old timer who does not care? Far from it! If I do not care, I would not commit myself to serving the Lord. 因為你說了STUPID,我覺得你是老愚昧. Do not take the slang as a personal offense to anyone here. It is not meant for you or any other person. We are the collective fool here. 對於後面的新人來說,你這麼說是不負責任的. Which part of my message was not responsible for those newcomers? 你們的教授想要說的,和我們在這裡討論的,就是同一回事. So what is the fuss then? 我們在論壇上才如此討論批評,在教會裡面還不是一樣要服事.你是趟過了這渾水的,當然可以這麼說.可是你難到就沒有想過,你趟的渾水,後面的人不一定要趟的. What do you mean by 趟過了這渾水的. I am clueless. Please be clear. 教會就是因為把訓練傳道人的工作推給了神學院,才會造成教師的缺乏.所以門徒訓練也缺乏.如果是一級一級在教會裡面建立起來,大家都是這麼鍛煉上來,就是一個新的局面了. Agree to a large extent! Indeed the church (which is us!) has failed on many fronts, not just pastoral training. It goes far deeper than the surface phenomenon. As I said in my post earlier, the church can boast little in the life chain from converts to disciples to disciple-makers. caleb：我們對神學院的討論是昨天對教會制度的討論的 延伸. 一開始我們就認為教會的制度有問題,我們稱之為教會科舉制度.你可以翻昨天的帖. 我說的渾水就是為了進入事奉而不得不走的這條上神學院的教會科舉制度. 老油條和老愚昧的帽子,我收回. xinmin：That proposal will not work well. Some denominational church elders are not required to have a seminary degree. Others are required. Seminary trained or not, the leader must still demonstrate ministerial competency and doctrinal soundness. Seminary education is just a way, a very expensive and tough way, to assure that not an average Joe and Jane will get to the leadership position with minimal effort on their part. Just think about that you are not educated with a recognized diploma and certificate for the job you are doing. That is unthinkable. Likewise, it is equally unthinkable to invite an average and uninitiated Joe or Jane to occupy the important shepherding position in our church. To acquire seminary education actually place a great burden on the servant to demonstrate his or her seriousness in serving the Lord. For me or anyone else, that is at least $40K for five to six years of part time study, in addition to work, family and ministry duties. It is that kind of toughness that only the most willing and determined souls will ever want to go through. So I need your prayer support. 片兒警：這就是我昨天說過的，神學院科舉制度將一些有恩賜的弟兄姐妹或扼殺在神學八股中或阻擋在神學八股外。 xinmin：I agree that church has failed on many fronts. In my dream church many years from now, I would emphasize the disciple-making and encourage those maturing disciples to take whatever ministries that the Lord has endowed gift with. A pastor or shepherd should never be the only busiest person in a local church. I want to see every disciple works their socks off and yet smile like a budda. He should be able to find time to play, let's say, golf (with his buddy coworkers). :-)) caleb：你難道不覺得這是一種無奈嗎? 我承認,讀神學院是需要相當大的付出和堅持的.可是這是必要的嗎?對你的事奉的幫助是和你的付出成比例的嗎? xinmin：No. I answered in another post. 神學院 is never meant to be 萬能的. It merely provides some additional advanced training to those who are called by God, identified and recommended by church. That is all there is. A minister or shepherd or pastor can know ALL of the theology in 2000 years of christian history, and recite the bible forward and backward even in orginal languages, he or she will have little or no contribution to the Kingdom of God without the life in Christ and the empowerment of the Spirit. The Church (which is us) provides the main theater for a community of faith. Seminary to ministers is like the arabian desert to Paul after his conversion and before his service in a big way. caleb：說你老油條的意思呢就是你已經把這個醜陋不堪的制度給當成視而不見了.因為你身陷其中不能自拔:) 不管現狀如何,憑良心說,教會的科舉制度是不是存在,是不是不符合聖經本意,是不是有害的呢? xinmin：This is my take. Feel free to critique. 不管現狀如何,憑良心說,教會的科舉制度是不是存在,是不是不符合聖經本意,是不是有害的呢? In modern time that stresses education for any professional occupation, I cannot agree that a minister who must shepherd God's flock and divide the biblical truth with godliness and reverence need not go through a grueling and tough seminary education. In fact, I now more and more appreciate the fact that going through seminary education is the least economical decision anyone will ever have to make. A seminary degree is tougher than many other subject, yet graduates in their right mind will never take that as a money-making business. You almost need to beg for money to make a living. It is no fun for most of us. The real question becomes, why do we need to make it so tough for anyone who wishes to serve the Lord? Shouldn't we relax the requirements and get easy on them? I would say, please don't. Is the biblical requirement any less grueling and tough then? I do not think so. It takes a Master Teacher as noble and capable as Christ to graduate just 11 disciples (the 12th is a dropout) for almost four years! It takes the best teacher in Paul's time to train him in the Law of God and three bloody years in the desert and a few more years in the Church of Antioch for a converted Paul to be ready for missions work. How much more training do we need? I think we need not just a grueling and tough seminary education which only the most daring souls will ever venture into, we need many more years of church ministry to be just ready for shephering and evangelism, among other things. caleb：Dear brother , I know it is tough, i just want to know which way is better. Love and Blessings. xinmin：Many thanks, brother. But I really want to serve the Lord if all possible.
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