Question again 

 

送交者: mean 2011年05月14日06:27:56 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

Remember the deal between David and the Gibeonites? Please judge them according to the Law of God as passed down through Moses. Fundamental questions to deal with are these: 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons; Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; Was David justified in handing them over? 

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; Why did Rizpah not bury her children; Why did David have no hand in this until much later? 

The last question is an interesting one: What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? :) 

I've read too many Bible commentaries and I am getting a little confused. Need a second point of view. 

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要上飛機去LA，簡短回應

送交者: 以西緬 2011月05月14日06:57:02 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56

舊約的所有記載必須在新約的亮光下看，否則會落入很深的陷阱。常說的話是這樣的：耶穌是看懂新約的鑰匙，而新約是看懂舊約的鑰匙。

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不守向神所起的誓而濫殺生命（雙重犯罪）會帶來神的懲罰 

 

送交者: 思齊 2011月05月14日11:57:10 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons;----No

Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; ---- No

Was David justified in handing them over? ----No

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; ----No

Why did Rizpah not bury her children; ---祈願神能念她的苦情而結束乾旱

Why did David have no hand in this until much later? --- 他是為利斯巴的善行所感動，所以掃羅和他兒子約拿單的骸骨搬了來，又收殮被懸掛七人的骸骨，將掃羅和他兒子約拿單的骸骨葬在便雅憫的洗拉，在掃羅父親基士的墳墓里。眾人行了王所吩咐的。此後神垂聽國民所求的。

The last question is an interesting one: What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? :) ---- Both

 神沒有因大衛把掃羅的子孫交給基遍人而止住乾旱 

 

送交者: 思齊 2011月05月14日16:27:04 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:不守向神所起的誓而濫殺生命（雙重犯罪）會帶來神的懲罰 由 思齊 於2011-05-14 11:57:10  

 

所以不能說殺死掃羅的子孫則The blood guilt paid，雖然這樣做止住了基遍人的憤怒，但沒有止住神的懲罰。只有當大衛埋葬了掃羅和他的子孫以後，神才垂聽國民所求的。可見，神的心意是要人遵守誓約，愛惜生命。

 

 

大衛把掃羅的子孫交給基遍人乃是緣木求魚 

 

送交者: 思齊 2011月05月14日21:43:31 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:神沒有因大衛把掃羅的子孫交給基遍人而止住乾旱 由 思齊 於2011-05-14 16:27:04  

 

他以為這麼做能贖掃羅的罪，實際上卻不能。他等了那麼久才想到這行不通，要另尋辦法 

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掃羅的兒子們是替罪羊 

 

送交者: 無為 2011月05月14日12:02:31 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

掃羅的兒子們是替罪羊。所以Rizpah非常傷心，但是她知道這筆債必須要還，因此她並沒有怨天尤人，而是默默地看護他們的遺骸，神自然也會為她而不平，因為任何受傷的心他必不輕看。

大衛的手就相當於祭司。為了平息地上的不公正，平息在神面前的不公正，必須要要有犧牲，只有這樣，今後的人才不會犯同樣的自以為是的錯誤。頭腦發熱，自以為義，恰恰顛覆了神的公義。

等到這兩件冤情都得到了安慰，人心才會歸平靜，大地也才會回歸平靜。這時候，大衛同樣是安慰人的角色，如同主耶穌用愛來撫平創傷。

至於說菲利士人殺了掃羅，是對掃羅的審判。那麼殺他的人並不是沒有罪的，這筆債只有在更加長久的歷史裡面去償還了。 大家都知道以色列的列王就是這樣，後一個成為審判前一個工具，最後沒有一個好的，他們都要為殺人賠償。所以，整個流着奶與蜜的加南地就慢慢變得荒涼了。這就是以牙還牙的代價，短時間的正義得到伸張，長久下來還是走向衰亡。基扁人的悲傷得到了安撫（justified?）

誰有神的忍耐？也就是他的兒子的忍耐？當我們還在罪中的時候，他就原諒我們了，為我們贖罪，不但原諒，而且拯救。不然的話，這個世界現在還能存在嗎？早已滿地詛咒，為了狹隘的時空下的伸冤而互相毀滅了。

 

奇怪的是，地上的法庭在審判的時候，也是看重有沒有受害人。

不知道說的對否~~

Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah

What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD? 

 

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看羅馬書 

 

送交者: 職老 2011月05月14日18:18:58 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

10章， 1-10

很多時候，舊約不只是歷史，也不只是新約的預備和預言之事， 而是為我們每位今日的基督徒準備的。

 

掃羅和大衛的關係是事情，真真切切的是我們今日基督徒都要在靈裡面經歷的光景，但如果我們不在其中，不借着禱告，不在親歷神的教育中讀這些經文，就沒有一句是讀的懂的。

神的話隱藏並不顯明，若不借着主耶穌，不借着聖靈，今日的基督徒和保羅在羅10裡面的猶太人一樣：

只以自己為義，失去了救恩。

 

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Gibeonites justified their 

 

送交者: 風影 2011月05月15日10:10:58 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

request in the name of justice.

Saul's sons are guilty of the blood sins because of their father Saul's intention/action to genocide the Gibeonites.  the guilt will pass to next few generation (up to 3?).

David justified in handing them over, but how many is enough, why 7, why not 1; or whether he shall ask for volunteer first, and whether if any of Saul's sons willing to offer as the 'lamb' to be sacrificed for atonement of sin..   or shall David 'negotiate' and persuade the Gibeonites first so that they shall forgive Saul's son, that forgiveness (mercy) shall prevail over justice (judgement) even though in old testament time!?  

 

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thank you for responding! 

 

送交者: mean 2011月05月16日06:37:08 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 於2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons; Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; Was David justified in handing them over? 

My answer: Saul's sons were guilty. God clearly indicated that they were guilty in 2 Sam 21:1. Whether they were directly responsible or guilty by association is less clear. I think they were probably directly responsible despite that they were young (perhaps teenagers) when Saul carried out the genocide. It's customary back then that the king's immediate family were also his most trusted ministers and generals. After all, God said that sons shouldn't die for the guilt of fathers (paraphrase). 

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; Why did Rizpah not bury her children; Why did David have no hand in this until much later? 

My answer: Gibeonites couldn't be justified in leaving Saul's sons hanging beyond one day. But Rizpah did the right thing in guarding her sons rather than stealing them for burial -- she perhaps used her action to remind and to accuse David and the Israelites for their inaction. Daivd was guilty perhaps of negligence, but was moved to the right course of action by burying the dead the way they should have been. 

What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? 

Both. God wanted the blood guilt paid, but done in a way according to His justice and mercy. 

Lessons I learned: 

1. the importance God places on convenants, even if made for the wrong reasons; this extends convenants made both between God and man, as well as between man and man. 

2. the mercy of God extends not only to those who are "innocent", but also to those who are guilty and accursed, as was our condition between we were saved by Christ. 

3. love, when expressed in a way that is according to God's will, can accomplish much, even save a people.  

 

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additional

送交者: 職老 2011月05月16日09:46:36 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話

回  答:thank you for responding! 由 mean 於2011-05-16 06:37:08

1. God so love us, like he loves Isreal, but, when we leave him, we lost. it is a relationship between I, you, him, her, David and God, even we see the relationship everyday that just is you and me, he and her, David and his friends and enimies. it is a big sample of Christian lifes according to Old Testament: we have never ever overcome the lessons that David had met thousands years ago.

2. innocent, guilty and accursed are under the law, with Christ saving, we can ask Father to rebuild, but every step, we are the person with new life but still see and maybe experienced too in those law-made events. But God permit us to pray and get Jesus into us since he saved everything. that's the ONLY different we are from David and Saul, we are so lucky but we are not intend to use such save for lucky. 

3. love also from everybody he saved, touching it when innocent, guilty and accursed occurred on us and thanks for everything.