| 網友討論：一， 關於同性戀思考 |
| 送交者: co15 2012年07月04日05:50:47 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 |
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天生性取向真能後天改變嗎? 請看今天剛看到的...
送交者: gaolian 2012年06月27日14:46:52 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 今天看到的文章. (當然對那些自願選擇去當GAY的, 神自會審判. 不在我們討論之中.) http://news.yahoo.com/ 至少我沒說過“因為如果是天生的，那麼就是合理的。” 我說那是病，我想他們自己也會認為那是病, 不是神原本的設計。病有輕有重, 這誰都懂。我也說過他們得改。可是他們因病而受到不同的待遇， 異性戀不是也同樣要是追求“聖潔”？ 可同是追求“聖潔”，當我們異性戀有性犯罪的念頭或行為時（ 你所提到的等伴侶的情況, 配偶患病的情況, 等等一切我們異性戀所面臨的挑戰不都一樣不少地同樣發生在他們的 “愛人如己”不是只愛基督家裡的, 是去愛所有的人如己！ ______________________________ 關於 Exodus International 的事兒 送交者: mean 2012月06月28日16:21:00 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 回 答:天生性取向真能後天改變嗎? 請看今天剛看到的... 由 gaolian 於2012-06-27 14:46:52 大約半年，或者是大半年以前，我也貼過，當然不是同一篇文章， 那篇文章提醒我們說， Christian life is a life of self-denial。這不是單說同性戀，更是說所有的人—— （你前面問到經文裡面什麼地方說神不喜悅同性戀性行為？ 這是一個自從亞當就已經墮落的時代， 這不是對同性戀基督徒說的，也是對所有人說的。 I think that, one of the the worst things we can do as Christians reading the Bible, is to put words in God's mouth what God does not say. If we truly believe that the Bible is the revelation of GOD, then we should think twice before altering the meaning of the verses, lest we be called false prophets. It's well known that the laws of the OT doesn't necessarily apply in NT, but the principles by which Christians judge what laws apply and what laws does not apply, were more than adequately addressed in CHRIST's teachings, and in early apostles' application (esp. in Pauline epistles). This framework (that GOD's laws are still valid to this day, as guidance and commands to Christians, even if the penalty of not able to completely fulfill that law has been paid by CHRIST in full on the cross), is important if you want to understand why Paul said what he said, in condemning homosexual acts along with a number of other acts. In general, it's safe to say (and I am not extrapolating much here at all) that if a practice is condemned in the OT, condemned in the NT, condemned without giving pretext or context, then there is no excuse for Christians to endorse this practice. One that comes to mind is murder, another is adultery, yet another is stealing. Homosexual acts, no matter how you argue, counts in this category, as clearly indicated in the Scriptures. To read the meaning behind a certain command, then, needs to be done under this very same framework. It does not in any way render that particular command meaningless. as an example, GOD asked Abraham to sacrifice his son as a foreshadowing of His plan to sacrifice His only begotten Son for the sake of mankind. But this in no way alleviates Abraham his responsibility in sacrificing Isaac, however primitive and barbaric that may sound to you. Whether Isaac ought or ought not to be sacrificed in the end was not in Abraham's power to determine, but in GOD's. I can imagine your incredulousness in accepting this. since somehow or other, you have equated homosexual orientation with disease, disease with helplessness, helplessness with hopelessness, and hopelessness with freedom from responsibility. you lack of understanding of biology and genetics has lifted homosexuality entirely up from the rest of human pathology and into a category of its own. but that incredulousness still does not void the command from GOD, because no matter what the reason behind the condemnation of homosexual acts, that reason does not invalidate the condemnation of homosexual acts itself. You can reason all you want, the truth is, neither OT nor NT has ever implied, in any way, shape or form, that homosexual acts are acceptable to GOD, or that pretext or context would somehow free perpetrators of such acts free of guilt, much as the involuntarily demon-possessed are not alleviated their "uncleanness" unless and until demons were cast out by the Holy command of CHRIST or one of his apostles. I am not saying homosexual acts are in any way more deplorable than premartial sex, adultery, divorce, pornography, and a whole host of human sexual sins whether in acts, in speech or in thoughts, some of which I am guilty (Mat 5:27-30); as such homosexuals, whether practicing or not, should not be subjected to discrimination. I am merely saying that homosexual orientation, no matter how diseased, does not alleviate a person of his responsibility if he has given up on the grace of GOD to pursue the bondage of flesh. There are a whole host of diseased states in personality, sexuality, addiction, self-awareness, emotional management etc., but short of overt psychosis, I don't think anyone can claim that they are "free" of the responsibility of their acts. ______________________________ 爭論不在點上.同性戀是違背聖經的靈性之罪,天生的後生 送交者: candle 2012月06月29日04:29:41 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 回 答:天生性取向真能後天改變嗎? 請看今天剛看到的... 由 gaolian 於2012-06-27 14:46:52 都改變不了那是罪這個定義. 怎麼對待這個罪是個可選擇的事,天生的可選擇治療, 每人都在罪中掙扎不等於罪就是合理,可以理直氣壯非存不可了. ______________________________ 還是那句話，讓有耳的聽，大家該幹嘛幹嘛， 送交者: 無為 2012月06月27日20:10:42 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 回 答:天生性取向真能後天改變嗎? 請看今天剛看到的... 由 gaolian 於2012-06-27 14:46:52 這都是神的命定，各人的命運和用處早就定好了， 大家管好自己，干好該做的事情，不要聽一些人妖言惑眾， 我們的話說到就好了。 ______________________________ 給gaolian的回帖，算是回貼。 送交者: 四季樹 2012年06月29日22:10:45 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 異性戀不是也同樣要是追求“聖潔”？ 送交者: gaolian 2012月06月28日19:16:38 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 回 答:阿門，袁少軒分享“對於基督徒而言， 可同是追求“聖潔”，當我們異性戀有性犯罪的念頭或行為時（ 你所提到的等伴侶的情況, 配偶患病的情況, 等等一切我們異性戀所面臨的挑戰不都一樣不少地同樣發生在他們的 “愛人如己”不是只愛基督家裡的, 是去愛所有的人如己！ ============================= 給gaolian的回帖，算是回貼。 送交者: 四季樹 2012年06月29日22:10:45 於 [彩虹之約] 發送悄悄話 什麼是愛？聖經里的定義最全面。 不信主以前，我喜歡感覺之愛，信主以後， 聖經里說：“因為袮的慈愛比生命更好“。 我知道是強姦是會被抓進監獄。並且如果你買房子， 什麼樣的人群自殺比例高？我知道相對老年人、 你覺得同性戀自殺比率高嗎？有數據分析嗎？ 我在中國的網頁找到點數據 http://news.163.com/special/ 如感興趣這樣的議題，你可以去search美國的網站， 在教會的N多年裡，我參與探討同性戀議題還不如在彩虹多。 每個人的十字架不一樣，神所愛的，祂必破碎我們的老我， 多少聖徒為信仰而死、希伯來書中論信心中， 他們在永恆里所得到的榮耀也是極重無比的。 希伯來書11章 36 又有人忍受戲弄，鞭打，捆鎖，監禁，各等的磨鍊。 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 被石頭打死，被鋸鋸死，受試探，被刀殺。 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 在曠野，山嶺，山洞，地穴，飄流無定。本是世界不配有的人。 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 我沒有接觸過明確”出櫃的“同性戀。我接觸過出軌的、暴力的、 我個人的那點渺小同情必須順服祂的律法之下。 只有神完全的公義和公平，也只能在祂的國度里才能實現。 如果你有愛心和感動服事這個人群，願神祝福和帶領你。 ______________________________ |
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