| 网友讨论：废除牧师制度的好处 |
| 送交者: 喜来登 2005年09月30日13:58:23 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 |
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----------------------------------------------------------------------- 废除牧师制度有不少好处，现归纳六点，欢迎讨论补充： 1.更符合圣经，既然圣经里提到的“牧师”仅一处，且不是指神给教会所设立的职分而言，是指神所赐的牧养恩赐所说，那么现在教会里的牧师职分的设立有名不正言不顺的嫌疑。 2.彻底摆脱神学院对教会职分设立的干扰，神学院统治教会的时代将一去不复返。现在不少教会招聘牧师均以某某宗某某派神学院毕业为条件，从招聘到这一招聘条件都无圣经根据。 3.避免雇工现象，牧师一旦被按立，走到哪里都是牧师。因此有些牧师毫无顾忌频频跳槽，更有的牧师将中小教会财务耗光后再奔高枝儿而去，搞得一些中小教会苦不堪言，其中也不乏分裂教会的。而长老就不一样，离开自己的本地教会，人家或许尊你一句长老，但是想给别的教会接着做长老，就没有牧师那么容易。这使得长老们更能死心塌地地服侍本地的教会。 约翰福音： 10:11 我是好牧人，好牧人为羊舍命。 4.可以避免神学院的一些僵化刻板教条的东西对教会灵性上的摧残，今后神学毕业生可以在教会做教师，教导知识，但是要想牧养教会，必须根据圣经，从神所赐的牧养恩赐，属灵程度以及教会服事，生活态度是否端正等方面重新考察，神学院的成绩单不在考量范围内。 5.恢复初期教会各种职分，各种恩赐，个个肢体互相搭配共同建造基督身体的活泼局面。铲除由于神学系统的不同而造成的派系纷争让基督做我们教会的头，而不是什么神学思想。 6. 彻底堵死由神学院直升牧师这条科举之路，可以阻止那些仅是出于职业选择读神学以及没有牧养恩赐只是擅长读书考试的人才鱼目混珠到教会的牧养治理层，给教会也给自己带来很大的困扰。 片儿警：羊儿加油，我在这里也给你摇唇鼓舌 不过，事先说好，我对现在的教会里要设立使徒，先知的职分是有保留的。我基本赞同记载在圣经里的使徒先知们是我们教会建造的根基，除此以外不可以再设立其他的使徒和先知。 等到革命成功后，羊儿你这先知型的人才注定要孤独的：） caleb：不加油了,革命是可以的,烈士我是不当的:) 1.教会不设牧师,总领的牧人要不要?要的话,无所谓被叫成什么,叫牧师无可无不可.不要总领的话,应该怎么运作?集体领导?三权分立?轮流执政?是人就不可能无偏差,需要一定制衡机制消减不必要的人事误操作. 2.神学院到底有没有存在必要?我个人认为有必要,尤其对教会领袖持守真道有必要.所谓见多才能不怪.真理知识的狭隘浅薄对一个领袖来说,往往是一害一群的致命伤.但是目前神学院的运作和控制功能也附带来很多弊端.神学院本身应该是以神为首领,充满神膏的地方,去那儿的人从灵到知识都应是有深度的被浇灌,在真理上不断坚立,生命上不断被建造成长.现在的神学院有多少能起到这样功用?去学的人有多少能这样成才的?这一方面是机制,另方面也是教导者和学生素质使然.世俗的名校对师资和学生生源千挑万选,都是挑最上乘的,为什么为神所开的学校就常有马马虎虎,鱼龙通吃的敷衍塞责的事? 3.派系纷争是神恨恶的,这不是今天才成的局面,而是历史的传承,从耶稣时和之前就有,我们如果改革,哪里是起点,要改到哪里? 我以前就这么干了许多年,很熟练.可是比起十个手指打字的,先天就不足了. 你讲的,在现有的基础上,确实是有道理的. 可是如果跳出这个现有的模式,想想十个手指打字的情况呢? 首先如果立足于传道人要自己训练培养,其实这应该是完全可行的,但这不是牧师的责任,所以牧师就会需要教师的帮助了. 牧养和传福音又是侧重点非常不同的,如果把传福音的需要再提出来,那么就需要传福音恩赐的帮助了.分辨恩赐,鼓励安慰劝勉代祷的呢,先知的恩赐就出来了.使徒恩赐是用来拓荒的. 这样看来,神学院,空降传道人到现有的教会这些做法都是因为只用一个指头敲字的弊端. 有些科举出来的牧师，没有为羊舍命的心只是雇工的心态，对教会的发展造成了严重的损害。我知道的一家教会原来两百多会员，经过六任牧师走马灯似的轮换，现在会员只剩下几十人了，如果有牧师把一些中小教会作为自己攀高枝儿的跳板，那更是可恶。危难的时候撇下羊群先溜的牧师也大有人在，教会真的不需要这样的雇工了。 candle：这个俺太同意了.牧会是一个极重的位子,要相当神的恩膏和生命成熟的人才挑得起来.这是属灵战场的领袖,属灵品格要求极高,不是插根翎子的阿猫阿狗就能跳大神的. 看到过你说的不爱羊的雇工了,滥竽充数,害人不浅.也看到无德无能之辈小葱装大蒜,自害害人. followHIM：不是制度的问题，是人的问题如果你们教会聘闪作牧师，不是神学院的错，不是闪的错，是你们自己的错。 片儿警：你如果真的followHIM你就应该知道圣经里没有神学院的位置，更没有由神学院到牧者这条科举之路，怎么能不是制度问题呢？ 852：你们教会就不聘神学生,不就结了:)有谁压着你们非聘不可吗? 说实在话,现在北美的这种专业化教会制度牧师是不是神学生,到后来的结局都差不多:) followHIM：圣经里没有神学院的位置的圣经根据在哪里？ 所以你们要去、使万民作我的门徒、奉父子圣灵的名、给他们施洗．〔或作给他们施洗归于父子圣灵的名〕 我建议大家一起读这本书： 我们都有可能做教会的长老(也许现在在这里的已经有很多了) 耶稣时代的教会是有拉比的。 耶稣就有这个身份。 保罗就是加马列门下的高才生。名牌神学院毕业。 神学院是先知创的。没有文士那里来得圣书。 就凭网上几位大虾嚷嚷来嚷嚷去，就要废神学。 这就是没有化几年时间全身心投入去学习，出现的 xinmin：You have said something good:-)) Even in OT times, there were classes of prophets. 片儿警 and caleb and some other people have expressed their disapproval of seminary. That is a good starting point to debate. But the key issue is never really seminary! It is the Church, stupid! (Please do not take offense at this slang) To make matters worse, the problem is you and I and he and she that constitute our local church! WE have failed much more than seminary! If our local church cannot equip saints, no good shepherds (or pastors if you prefer that title) will ever step out to serve. Those who are against seminary as a system for pastoral training may have not had much understanding about seminary. We often use double standard in our thinking. For example, we spend our prime youthful years (up to 20 years or so) of life to receive education (from elementary to middlde to high school, to college and to graduate school and then continuing education). For what? Is that not for our adequate equipping to serve in certain capacities in society? So why are we having problem with stringent theological and professional training for christian ministry? Or you may argue that church setting is good enough to train ministers. But you just shoot on your own feet by saying that. Then why do not you or many other people in church setting rise up to the challenge of serving others? Why not? Are we ready to admit that we are wasteful product of the church? Apparently WE the CHURCH as a whole have failed on many fronts. The church is somewhat good at converting people (after all, 1/3 of the world population claim they are christians!), poor at discipling the converts into Christ's disciples, even poorer or have nearly failed at making only a preciously small number of disciple-makers!! One of my seminary professors said matter-of-factly in the very first class that he expects some of us will find out, when the class is over, that we may not have God's calling, spiritual gifts and/or character to be a minister! To say that seminary does not know better than you or I is laughable. If we have to laugh, please laugh at our own failures and inadequacy, not others. We all have a picture of an ideal church where every saint is spirit-filled and passionate at pursuing God, imitating Christ, and serving others. It is better if we are a doer than a doing-nothing critic. Let's all press on toward that common goal in Christ. caleb：你是老油条了,当然这么说了 因为你说了STUPID,我觉得你是老愚昧. 对于后面的新人来说,你这么说是不负责任的. 你们的教授想要说的,和我们在这里讨论的,就是同一回事. 我们在论坛上才如此讨论批评,在教会里面还不是一样要服事.你是趟过了这浑水的,当然可以这么说.可是你难到就没有想过,你趟的浑水,后面的人不一定要趟的. 教会就是因为把训练传道人的工作推给了神学院,才会造成教师的缺乏.所以门徒训练也缺乏.如果是一级一级在教会里面建立起来,大家都是这么锻炼上来,就是一个新的局面了. xinmin：Did we misunderstand each other? 老油条? What does that mean? An old timer who does not care? Far from it! If I do not care, I would not commit myself to serving the Lord. 因为你说了STUPID,我觉得你是老愚昧. Do not take the slang as a personal offense to anyone here. It is not meant for you or any other person. We are the collective fool here. 对于后面的新人来说,你这么说是不负责任的. Which part of my message was not responsible for those newcomers? 你们的教授想要说的,和我们在这里讨论的,就是同一回事. So what is the fuss then? 我们在论坛上才如此讨论批评,在教会里面还不是一样要服事.你是趟过了这浑水的,当然可以这么说.可是你难到就没有想过,你趟的浑水,后面的人不一定要趟的. What do you mean by 趟过了这浑水的. I am clueless. Please be clear. 教会就是因为把训练传道人的工作推给了神学院,才会造成教师的缺乏.所以门徒训练也缺乏.如果是一级一级在教会里面建立起来,大家都是这么锻炼上来,就是一个新的局面了. Agree to a large extent! Indeed the church (which is us!) has failed on many fronts, not just pastoral training. It goes far deeper than the surface phenomenon. As I said in my post earlier, the church can boast little in the life chain from converts to disciples to disciple-makers. caleb：我们对神学院的讨论是昨天对教会制度的讨论的 延伸. 一开始我们就认为教会的制度有问题,我们称之为教会科举制度.你可以翻昨天的帖. 我说的浑水就是为了进入事奉而不得不走的这条上神学院的教会科举制度. 老油条和老愚昧的帽子,我收回. xinmin：That proposal will not work well. Some denominational church elders are not required to have a seminary degree. Others are required. Seminary trained or not, the leader must still demonstrate ministerial competency and doctrinal soundness. Seminary education is just a way, a very expensive and tough way, to assure that not an average Joe and Jane will get to the leadership position with minimal effort on their part. Just think about that you are not educated with a recognized diploma and certificate for the job you are doing. That is unthinkable. Likewise, it is equally unthinkable to invite an average and uninitiated Joe or Jane to occupy the important shepherding position in our church. To acquire seminary education actually place a great burden on the servant to demonstrate his or her seriousness in serving the Lord. For me or anyone else, that is at least $40K for five to six years of part time study, in addition to work, family and ministry duties. It is that kind of toughness that only the most willing and determined souls will ever want to go through. So I need your prayer support. 片儿警：这就是我昨天说过的，神学院科举制度将一些有恩赐的弟兄姐妹或扼杀在神学八股中或阻挡在神学八股外。 xinmin：I agree that church has failed on many fronts. In my dream church many years from now, I would emphasize the disciple-making and encourage those maturing disciples to take whatever ministries that the Lord has endowed gift with. A pastor or shepherd should never be the only busiest person in a local church. I want to see every disciple works their socks off and yet smile like a budda. He should be able to find time to play, let's say, golf (with his buddy coworkers). :-)) caleb：你难道不觉得这是一种无奈吗? 我承认,读神学院是需要相当大的付出和坚持的.可是这是必要的吗?对你的事奉的帮助是和你的付出成比例的吗? xinmin：No. I answered in another post. 神学院 is never meant to be 万能的. It merely provides some additional advanced training to those who are called by God, identified and recommended by church. That is all there is. A minister or shepherd or pastor can know ALL of the theology in 2000 years of christian history, and recite the bible forward and backward even in orginal languages, he or she will have little or no contribution to the Kingdom of God without the life in Christ and the empowerment of the Spirit. The Church (which is us) provides the main theater for a community of faith. Seminary to ministers is like the arabian desert to Paul after his conversion and before his service in a big way. caleb：说你老油条的意思呢就是你已经把这个丑陋不堪的制度给当成视而不见了.因为你身陷其中不能自拔:) 不管现状如何,凭良心说,教会的科举制度是不是存在,是不是不符合圣经本意,是不是有害的呢? xinmin：This is my take. Feel free to critique. 不管现状如何,凭良心说,教会的科举制度是不是存在,是不是不符合圣经本意,是不是有害的呢? In modern time that stresses education for any professional occupation, I cannot agree that a minister who must shepherd God's flock and divide the biblical truth with godliness and reverence need not go through a grueling and tough seminary education. In fact, I now more and more appreciate the fact that going through seminary education is the least economical decision anyone will ever have to make. A seminary degree is tougher than many other subject, yet graduates in their right mind will never take that as a money-making business. You almost need to beg for money to make a living. It is no fun for most of us. The real question becomes, why do we need to make it so tough for anyone who wishes to serve the Lord? Shouldn't we relax the requirements and get easy on them? I would say, please don't. Is the biblical requirement any less grueling and tough then? I do not think so. It takes a Master Teacher as noble and capable as Christ to graduate just 11 disciples (the 12th is a dropout) for almost four years! It takes the best teacher in Paul's time to train him in the Law of God and three bloody years in the desert and a few more years in the Church of Antioch for a converted Paul to be ready for missions work. How much more training do we need? I think we need not just a grueling and tough seminary education which only the most daring souls will ever venture into, we need many more years of church ministry to be just ready for shephering and evangelism, among other things. caleb：Dear brother , I know it is tough, i just want to know which way is better. Love and Blessings. xinmin：Many thanks, brother. But I really want to serve the Lord if all possible.
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