有几个慕道友问的“叛经离道”问题，请教大家该如何回答？
1）耶稣既然有救赎人类这么伟大的使命，他为什么上十字架之前如此挣扎？
对比有很多革命烈士或者宗教人士对待死亡大义凛然或者淡然处之的态度，
耶稣的表现是否有些“逊”了（不如，比较差的意思）？
2）出卖耶稣的犹大真是一个倒霉蛋，为了帮助耶稣上十字架，牺牲了自己。
如果没有犹大，十字架的救恩岂不是完成不了？或者没有犹大，还要有另外
一个出卖耶稣的倒霉蛋？
请大家出主意该如何回答这些问题。
我们尝试性的回答如下，但感觉还是没有特别有说服力。
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1）其实对待死亡大义凛然和淡然处之的态度，在基督教里也不少见。比如
彼得和保罗上十字架的时候。保罗很早就对死亡看的很淡然了。那么，作为
基督教的神，耶稣对待死亡的态度，显然不会比保罗和彼得“逊”。
耶稣在十字架前的挣扎，除了肉体上的痛苦，我想可能灵里面的挣扎更加
痛苦。耶稣要负担全人类所有的罪，饮下苦杯，还要经历和父神短暂分离
的痛苦。圣经真实记录了耶稣的痛苦。所以没有逊不逊的问题。
2）犹大不是倒霉蛋，他自己的道德品质就有问题，比如偷钱，才会被撒旦
诱惑。如果没有犹大出卖，我想神的救恩还是会以某种方式完成。当然，历史
没有假设。
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对比--大义凛然或者淡然处之的态度：
送交者: 雅1 2010月11月15日17:17:10 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话
回 答:小包包:几个慕道友问的“叛经离道”问题，请教大家该如何回答？ 由 小包包 于2010-11-13 16:15:19
1）耶稣既然有救赎人类这么伟大的使命，他为什么上十字架之前如此挣扎？对比有很多革命烈士或者宗教人士对待死亡大义凛然或者淡然处之的态度，耶稣的表现是否有些“逊”了（不如，比较差的意思）？
对比的好，耶稣从出生开始，就比大义凛然的要“逊”了：
主是全知的，神他明明知道他让约瑟一家逃了，希律要杀一切2岁内的孩子，他居然“逊”地逃亡，任凭其他婴儿因他而死亡！对比，抗战电影里的光辉形象挺身而出，把自己交给日本人，解救全村老百姓，这简直太逊了呀。
附录：
马 太 福 音 2:13-18
他们去后、有主的使者向约瑟梦中显现、说、起来、带着小孩子同他母亲、逃往埃及、住在那里、等我吩咐你．因为希律必寻找小孩子要除灭他。约瑟就起来、夜间带着小孩子和他母亲往埃及去．住在那里、直到希律死了．这是要应验主借先知所说的话、说、『我从埃及召出我的儿子来。』 希律见自己被博士愚弄、就大大发怒、差人将伯利恒城里、并四境所有的男孩、照着他向博士仔细查问的时候、凡两岁以里的、都杀尽了。这就应了先知耶利米的话、说、『在拉玛听见号咷大哭的声音、是拉结哭他儿女、不肯受安慰、因为他们都不在了。』
主是全能地，其实都不用他挺身而出，他派个使者就可以让要杀他和其他婴儿的希律倒地身亡，他也确实让另外一个希律倒地身亡了：
Act 12:23 希律不归荣耀给神、所以主的使者立刻罚他．他被虫所咬、气就绝了
为什么大能全知的他如此之逊？？
这是圣灵告诉我们，耶稣绝对不是负载崇高使命的人之英雄，他绝对不是为了无辜的人而牺牲自己的人；
这是圣灵告诉我们，耶稣在表达他不以自己与神同等为强夺的，反倒虚己、自己限制自己做为神的大能，取了奴仆的形像、成为人的样式．既有人的样子、就能体谅那愚蒙的、和失迷的人、因为他自己也是被软弱所困． 他并非不能体恤我们的软弱．他也曾凡事受过试探、与我们一样．只是他没有犯罪。
原来，他不是来做我们的英雄地，他来是做体恤我们的软弱但当我们罪过的替罪羊地。他不是高大的英雄，他是与我们一样被软弱所困的人，只是他把他的软弱交给神，神就派天使加添他力量，因此他能够顺从神，他不是为了无辜的人而牺牲他自己的英雄，相反，他是为了罪有应得的罪人们而替代了惩罚。
2）出卖耶稣的犹大真是一个倒霉蛋，为了帮助耶稣上十字架，牺牲了自己。如果没有犹大，十字架的救恩岂不是完成不了？或者没有犹大，还要有另外一个出卖耶稣的倒霉蛋？
这个问题，如果学完了下面列的经文，就知道犹大不是倒霉蛋，而是蒙受了比我们一般人多的多的恩典却依然拒绝到底的而使得其结局无可推逶。
Judas: Grace for every sinner
Read Luke 22:1-6,47,48
Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present. . . .
47While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
Gifts of grace to Judas:
Luke 6:12-16 Called to be a disciple, one of the 12, designated an apostle
John 6:70 After prayer, Jesus still chose Judas even though he knew Judas would betray him. He still chose him to be one of the Twelve.
Acts 1:16-17 Shared in this ministry. Jesus gave him part in the ministry of the Word. That is a gift of pure grace for the man who would betray him.
John 13:29 Judas was the group treasurer, a position of responsibility among the apostles.
Mark 5:41,42; 6:40-44.; 6:48 He saw amazing miracles firsthand, including the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus walking on water, and Jesus raising the dead
Matthew 10:1 (How often do we remember this one?) He let Judas perform miracles in his name. The man who would later betray him was shown such grace that God allowed him miracles of healing to give attestation to the ministry of the Son of God.
Calls Judas to repentance
God didn’t stop at giving gifts of grace. Jesus also called Judas to turn from his path again and again. Identify the calls to repentance Jesus gave to Judas.
John 6:64-71 Jesus told Judas plainly that he knew that Judas did not believe. The Savior spoke the law with all its harshness and identified the future betrayer as a devil.
John 12:4-8 Jesus addressed the god that Judas worshipped: money. He called him to repent of his false piety that was meant only to cover his theft. He pointed him to the short time that Jesus would be there in his earthly ministry and alluded to the ultimate result of Judas’ idol worship: Christ’s burial.
John 13:10,11; 13:21-27 Jesus spoke to Judas’ unbelieving heart with the truth of God’s law: I know you, Judas. I know what you intend. I point you out that you might see your sin and turn from it. Of course, Judas didn’t. He turned instead to sin and Satan, and the devil took him as his own.
John 18:4-6 Judas was driven to the ground along with the crowd who had come to arrest Jesus. They thought they had come with all the power, but they could not help but fall before the Lord. Judas should have known again that he was betraying the Son of God.
Luke 22:48 When the man shown so much grace came to betray his Lord, he came under a guise of friendship. Jesus calls out Judas on the galling nature of his act: you are betraying the Son of Man, the Messiah himself, and doing it with a supposed kiss of friendship? Hard is the heart that could ignore Jesus’ calls to repentance!
Love spurned
He had sold his Lord for silver, but when he saw that Jesus was condemned, Judas “was seized with remorse” and said, “I have sinned . . . for I have betrayed innocent blood” (Matthew 27:3,4).
Look at Matthew 27:1.
What did Judas recognize? The innocence of Christ and the fact that he had sinned in his actions.
What events led to Judas’ remorse? Was he present at the trial? Did it begin when he fell to his knees in the garden? Did he think, somehow, that they weren’t going to condemn Jesus to death? We don’t know. What we do know is that when Jesus was condemned, Judas condemned himself.
Explain the difference between remorse and repentance? Remorse is distress over the guilt from past wrongs. Repentance consists of two parts: contrition (sorrow over sins, terror of sin’s effect) and faith in God’s forgiveness. Remorse comes from the law. Repentance is born of the gospel.
How did the words of the religious leaders completely contradict the plan of God? They said that the guilt was Judas’ responsibility. In fact, Christ came to save sinners and take the responsibility of sin and guilt away from them.
How did Judas’ remorse lead to his suicide? His guilt and terror over sin lacked the faith in Christ that comes with repentance. He was hopeless and helpless, believing that God could not love a sinner like him.
The message of Christ is one of law and gospel. What is the danger if one or the other is excluded? The despairing sinner who knows only law cannot but think that all is lost. He needs to hear the gospel. The sinner who thinks lightly of sin needs to see the mirror of the law. God wants us to rightly divide the Word of Truth so that the comfortable might be afflicted and the afflicted comforted.
Jesus gave many gifts of grace and calls to repentance to Judas. How is Judas a warning to us? How a comfort? We, too, have been shown great grace in Word and sacrament. Judas is a warning that we should never spurn God’s grace or belittle the danger of sin.
Yet in Christ’s actions and attitude toward Judas, we see the truth of John 3:16: that God truly loved the world and everyone in it.
The grace of God was never far from Judas. In Judas we see God’s grace for every sinner. Even our Lord’s betrayer was shown the grace of God. To the very end, Jesus called on Judas to question his ways. In his betrayal and subsequent suicide, Judas typifies the worst of sin. But even our Lord’s betrayer saw the selfless, seeking, all consuming love of Christ. What a comfort to know that God loved the world. That means he loves me!
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“叛经离道”的回答
送交者: xinmin 2010月11月15日08:43:13 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话
回 答:小包包:几个慕道友问的“叛经离道”问题，请教大家该如何回答？ 由 小包包 于2010-11-13 16:15:19
1）耶稣既然有救赎人类这么伟大的使命，他为什么上十字架之前如此挣扎？对比有很多革命烈士或者宗教人士对待死亡大义凛然或者淡然处之的态度，耶稣的表现是否有些“逊”了（不如，比较差的意思）？
试答：的确，我们不得不承认，耶稣在客西马尼园的软弱表现（感谢门徒的如实记载！）似乎比不上许多革命烈士们在临死关头所表现出的某种英勇无畏或者视死如归（至少书本上是如此教育咱们的，他们果真有过多少或者什么软弱，咱们估计就不得而知了）。我想，耶稣更加认同咱们普通人临危有惧的表现。答案的关键也从这里开始。
耶稣向普通的你我（姑且也包括景仰英雄人物的发问者）表明，他作为人类代罪的羔羊，是一个有血有肉的人，最真实地表达出人类的共同心情：对死亡的惧怕。但耶稣深知：他来到这个罪恶的世界，正是要完成流血的救恩，拯救被罪与死捆绑而贪生怕死的人。他不得不死，他其实别无选择。所以，他虽然表现出常人（以及革别人命后来被别人革命的英雄人物）可以理解的软弱（虽然革命烈士跟耶稣一样，最后都不得不拒绝了软弱，英勇就义），依然对天父祷告三次说，但不要照我的意思，乃照你的意思。这给咱们这些生来就怕死的普通人指明了一个方向：我虽软弱，求父的意愿依然在我身上成就。
咱们现在还苟且活着的人，等到死亡临头，估计就更加深刻明白耶稣的举动了。而且，死亡来临前，抓腮的机会恐怕都缺乏，找救命稻草或者救命恩主或者被动等死，都是很不得已啊。你说呢。
2）出卖耶稣的犹大真是一个倒霉蛋，为了帮助耶稣上十字架，牺牲了自己。如果没有犹大，十字架的救恩岂不是完成不了？或者没有犹大，还要有另外一个出卖耶稣的倒霉蛋？
试答：犹大真正的倒霉还不是用亲嘴的暗号来帮助抓耶稣的人在黑暗中抓对人，因为即使没有他，要下手办耶稣其实也很容易。要置耶稣于死地的人大有人在，犯不上犹大或另外的倒霉鬼帮忙。当然，上帝一眼看穿永恒，知道犹大是灭亡之子，他必然扮演并不光彩的角色。犹大真正的倒霉是，他耳闻目睹耶稣彰显天国的权能，他或者想利用大能的耶稣揭杆而起闹革命，推翻罗马人的统治，或者想捞点人肉馒头（三十块银钱）。无论如何，他失算了！这是他的倒霉。听过耶稣福音而依然拒绝耶稣的现代人，即使不全是罪有应得，不也是同样倒霉吗？
补充一点：
耶稣比谁都更深刻明白，罪人落在永生神手里是何等可怕！
他以代罪之身，比英雄人物就更加明白为全人类受苦受死的重担之沉重！
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活不到冬天的虫子，怎么会知道冬天的冰冷呢?
送交者: 摇头 2010月11月15日06:36:19 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话
回 答:小包包:几个慕道友问的“叛经离道”问题，请教大家该如何回答？ 由 小包包 于2010-11-13 16:15:19
人类历史上慷慨赴死的有很多，只要对死本身有个能安慰自己的良心的开解就可以了。
就连鲁迅笔下的阿Q被拉出去砍头的时候还在琢磨怎么个死法儿才有面子，却对死的本身麻木不仁。
或找到了死得其所的意义，或找到了“重于泰山”死的价值，或找到了“二十年后又是一条好汉”死的安慰，毕竟人人都有一死，只是早死几年晚死几年的问题，慷慨起来还是能做到的。
拿只有几十年生命的人的死去比较自有永有永生耶稣基督的死那是幼稚可笑的，就相当于分子是几十比无限这个分母一样，结果是大家都清楚的零，没任何的意义。
死这个苦杯的滋味只有耶稣基督自己知道，在他的自有永有的生命当中为了我们的罪而出现了死这么个断点，尝到了死的苦味，那种痛苦哪里是我们只有这可怜的几十年生命的人能理解和比较的，我们不要在干夏虫语冰的傻事了，活不到冬天的虫子，怎么会知道冬天的冰冷呢?
罗马书：
| 5:7 | [hgb] | 为 义 人 死 ， 是 少 有 的 ， 为 仁 人 死 ， 或 者 有 敢 作 的 。 |
| | [kjv] | For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. |
| | [bbe] | Now it is hard for anyone to give his life even for an upright man, though it might be that for a good man someone would give his life. |
| 5:8 | [hgb] | 惟 有 基 督 在 我 们 还 作 罪 人 的 时 候 为 我 们 死 ， 神 的 爱 就 在 此 向 我 们 显 明 了 。 |
| | [kjv] | But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. |
| | [bbe] | But God has made clear his love to us, in that, when we were still sinners, Christ gave his life for us. |
两个死囚就要被执行死刑的时候
法官赦免了那个叫蒙恩的，执行了那个叫犹大的。
那个叫蒙恩的劫后余生本应该感激涕零才对，而他却说：这对犹大不公平，为什么叫他死了让我活了？为了让我活，犹大牺牲了他自己，真是个倒霉蛋。
呵呵，这人的思维是不是很奇怪？
罗马书：
| 3:7 | [hgb] | 若 神 的 真 实 ， 因 我 的 虚 谎 ， 越 发 显 出 他 的 荣 耀 ， 为 什 么 我 还 受 审 判 ， 好 像 罪 人 呢 ？ |
| | [kjv] | For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? |
| | [bbe] | But if, because I am untrue, God being seen to be true gets more glory, why am I to be judged as a sinner? |
| 3:8 | [hgb] | 为 什 么 不 说 ， 我 们 可 以 作 恶 以 成 善 呢 ？ 这 是 毁 谤 我 们 的 人 ， 说 我 们 有 这 话 。 这 等 人 定 罪 ， 是 该 当 的 。 |
| | [kjv] | And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. |
| | [bbe] | Let us not do evil so that good may come (a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made), because such behaviour will have its right punishment. |
| 9:16 | [hgb] | 据 此 看 来 ， 这 不 在 乎 那 定 意 的 ， 也 不 在 乎 那 奔 跑 的 ， 只 在 乎 发 怜 悯 的 神 。 |
| | [kjv] | So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. |
| | [bbe] | So then, it is not by the desire or by the attempt of man, but by the mercy of God. |
| 9:17 | [hgb] | 因 为 经 上 有 话 向 法 老 说 ， 我 将 你 兴 起 来 ， 特 要 在 你 身 上 彰 显 我 的 权 能 ， 并 要 使 我 的 名 传 遍 天 下 。 |
| | [kjv] | For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. |
| | [bbe] | For the holy Writings say to Pharaoh, For this same purpose did I put you on high, so that I might make my power seen in you, and that there might be knowledge of my name through all the earth. |
| 9:18 | [hgb] | 如 此 看 来 ， 神 要 怜 悯 谁 ， 就 怜 悯 谁 ， 要 叫 谁 刚 硬 ， 就 叫 谁 刚 硬 。 |
| | [kjv] | Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. |
| | [bbe] | So then, at his pleasure he has mercy on a man, and at his pleasure he makes the heart hard. |
| 9:19 | [hgb] | 这 样 ， 你 必 对 我 说 ， 他 为 什 么 还 指 责 人 呢 ？ 有 谁 抗 拒 他 的 旨 意 呢 ？ |
| | [kjv] | Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? |
| | [bbe] | But you will say to me, Why does he still make us responsible? who is able to go against his purpose? |
| 9:20 | [hgb] | 你 这 个 人 哪 ， 你 是 谁 ， 竟 敢 向 神 强 嘴 呢 ？ 受 造 之 物 岂 能 对 造 他 的 说 ， 你 为 什 么 这 样 造 我 呢 ？ |
| | [kjv] | Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? |
| | [bbe] | But, O man, who are you, to make answer against God? May the thing which is made say to him who made it, Why did you make me so? |
| 9:21 | [hgb] | 窑 匠 难 道 没 有 权 柄 ， 从 一 团 泥 里 拿 一 块 作 成 贵 重 的 器 皿 ， 又 拿 一 块 作 成 卑 贱 的 器 皿 吗 ？ |
| | [kjv] | Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? |
| | [bbe] | Or has not the potter the right to make out of one part of his earth a vessel for honour, and out of another a vessel for shame? |
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我会这么回答
送交者: 四季树 2010月11月13日19:25:55 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话
回 答:小包包:几个慕道友问的“叛经离道”问题，请教大家该如何回答？ 由 小包包 于2010-11-13 16:15:19
1）所谓 “ 无知者无畏” --- 这可以形容先烈们及其它宗教人士（长着石头心的人们） 为理想献身的英勇劲头（如果他们真实彻底地了解他们的理想只能是无法实现的梦想、幻想或whatever以及他们所要付出的代价的话）。
-- 抱歉，估计这么说，有人得怒了。
对于为主殉道的人，有耶稣的榜样和圣徒们的脚踪，更有圣灵内驻加添的力量。
基督耶稣上帝的儿子，洞察参透万事，深刻了解祂所要承受的，十架七言中，祂最痛苦的时刻，呼喊的是 ”“我的神，我的神，为什么离弃我？”-- 这是祂至深的痛苦。
2）出卖神子、钉死耶稣的是这个世界的罪恶。不用太纠结某个人。就象这个世界永远不缺乏背叛，悖逆一样。
