Question again 

 

送交者: mean 2011年05月14日06:27:56 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

Remember the deal between David and the Gibeonites? Please judge them according to the Law of God as passed down through Moses. Fundamental questions to deal with are these: 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons; Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; Was David justified in handing them over? 

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; Why did Rizpah not bury her children; Why did David have no hand in this until much later? 

The last question is an interesting one: What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? :) 

I've read too many Bible commentaries and I am getting a little confused. Need a second point of view. 

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要上飞机去LA，简短回应

送交者: 以西缅 2011月05月14日06:57:02 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56

旧约的所有记载必须在新约的亮光下看，否则会落入很深的陷阱。常说的话是这样的：耶稣是看懂新约的钥匙，而新约是看懂旧约的钥匙。

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不守向神所起的誓而滥杀生命（双重犯罪）会带来神的惩罚 

 

送交者: 思齐 2011月05月14日11:57:10 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons;----No

Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; ---- No

Was David justified in handing them over? ----No

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; ----No

Why did Rizpah not bury her children; ---祈愿神能念她的苦情而结束干旱

Why did David have no hand in this until much later? --- 他是为利斯巴的善行所感动，所以扫罗和他儿子约拿单的骸骨搬了来，又收殓被悬挂七人的骸骨，将扫罗和他儿子约拿单的骸骨葬在便雅悯的洗拉，在扫罗父亲基士的坟墓里。众人行了王所吩咐的。此後神垂听国民所求的。

The last question is an interesting one: What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? :) ---- Both

 神没有因大卫把扫罗的子孙交给基遍人而止住干旱 

 

送交者: 思齐 2011月05月14日16:27:04 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:不守向神所起的誓而滥杀生命（双重犯罪）会带来神的惩罚 由 思齐 于2011-05-14 11:57:10  

 

所以不能说杀死扫罗的子孙则The blood guilt paid，虽然这样做止住了基遍人的愤怒，但没有止住神的惩罚。只有当大卫埋葬了扫罗和他的子孙以后，神才垂听国民所求的。可见，神的心意是要人遵守誓约，爱惜生命。

 

 

大卫把扫罗的子孙交给基遍人乃是缘木求鱼 

 

送交者: 思齐 2011月05月14日21:43:31 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:神没有因大卫把扫罗的子孙交给基遍人而止住干旱 由 思齐 于2011-05-14 16:27:04  

 

他以为这么做能赎扫罗的罪，实际上却不能。他等了那么久才想到这行不通，要另寻办法 

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扫罗的儿子们是替罪羊 

 

送交者: 无为 2011月05月14日12:02:31 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

扫罗的儿子们是替罪羊。所以Rizpah非常伤心，但是她知道这笔债必须要还，因此她并没有怨天尤人，而是默默地看护他们的遗骸，神自然也会为她而不平，因为任何受伤的心他必不轻看。

大卫的手就相当于祭司。为了平息地上的不公正，平息在神面前的不公正，必须要要有牺牲，只有这样，今后的人才不会犯同样的自以为是的错误。头脑发热，自以为义，恰恰颠覆了神的公义。

等到这两件冤情都得到了安慰，人心才会归平静，大地也才会回归平静。这时候，大卫同样是安慰人的角色，如同主耶稣用爱来抚平创伤。

至于说菲利士人杀了扫罗，是对扫罗的审判。那么杀他的人并不是没有罪的，这笔债只有在更加长久的历史里面去偿还了。 大家都知道以色列的列王就是这样，后一个成为审判前一个工具，最后没有一个好的，他们都要为杀人赔偿。所以，整个流着奶与蜜的加南地就慢慢变得荒凉了。这就是以牙还牙的代价，短时间的正义得到伸张，长久下来还是走向衰亡。基扁人的悲伤得到了安抚（justified?）

谁有神的忍耐？也就是他的儿子的忍耐？当我们还在罪中的时候，他就原谅我们了，为我们赎罪，不但原谅，而且拯救。不然的话，这个世界现在还能存在吗？早已满地诅咒，为了狭隘的时空下的伸冤而互相毁灭了。

 

奇怪的是，地上的法庭在审判的时候，也是看重有没有受害人。

不知道说的对否~~

Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah

What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD? 

 

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看罗马书 

 

送交者: 职老 2011月05月14日18:18:58 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

10章， 1-10

很多时候，旧约不只是历史，也不只是新约的预备和预言之事， 而是为我们每位今日的基督徒准备的。

 

扫罗和大卫的关系是事情，真真切切的是我们今日基督徒都要在灵里面经历的光景，但如果我们不在其中，不借着祷告，不在亲历神的教育中读这些经文，就没有一句是读的懂的。

神的话隐藏并不显明，若不借着主耶稣，不借着圣灵，今日的基督徒和保罗在罗10里面的犹太人一样：

只以自己为义，失去了救恩。

 

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Gibeonites justified their 

 

送交者: 風影 2011月05月15日10:10:58 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

request in the name of justice.

Saul's sons are guilty of the blood sins because of their father Saul's intention/action to genocide the Gibeonites.  the guilt will pass to next few generation (up to 3?).

David justified in handing them over, but how many is enough, why 7, why not 1; or whether he shall ask for volunteer first, and whether if any of Saul's sons willing to offer as the 'lamb' to be sacrificed for atonement of sin..   or shall David 'negotiate' and persuade the Gibeonites first so that they shall forgive Saul's son, that forgiveness (mercy) shall prevail over justice (judgement) even though in old testament time!?  

 

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thank you for responding! 

 

送交者: mean 2011月05月16日06:37:08 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话 

 

回  答:Question again 由 mean 于2011-05-14 06:27:56  

 

Were the Gibeonites justified in requesting the deaths of Saul's sons; Were Saul's sons guilty of the blood sins; Was David justified in handing them over? 

My answer: Saul's sons were guilty. God clearly indicated that they were guilty in 2 Sam 21:1. Whether they were directly responsible or guilty by association is less clear. I think they were probably directly responsible despite that they were young (perhaps teenagers) when Saul carried out the genocide. It's customary back then that the king's immediate family were also his most trusted ministers and generals. After all, God said that sons shouldn't die for the guilt of fathers (paraphrase). 

Were the Gibeonites justified in leaving the body of Saul's sons; Why did Rizpah not bury her children; Why did David have no hand in this until much later? 

My answer: Gibeonites couldn't be justified in leaving Saul's sons hanging beyond one day. But Rizpah did the right thing in guarding her sons rather than stealing them for burial -- she perhaps used her action to remind and to accuse David and the Israelites for their inaction. Daivd was guilty perhaps of negligence, but was moved to the right course of action by burying the dead the way they should have been. 

What ultimately made did God bring the famine to an end? The blood guilt paid? or Saul and his sons buried? 

Both. God wanted the blood guilt paid, but done in a way according to His justice and mercy. 

Lessons I learned: 

1. the importance God places on convenants, even if made for the wrong reasons; this extends convenants made both between God and man, as well as between man and man. 

2. the mercy of God extends not only to those who are "innocent", but also to those who are guilty and accursed, as was our condition between we were saved by Christ. 

3. love, when expressed in a way that is according to God's will, can accomplish much, even save a people.  

 

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additional

送交者: 职老 2011月05月16日09:46:36 于 [彩虹之约] 发送悄悄话

回  答:thank you for responding! 由 mean 于2011-05-16 06:37:08

1. God so love us, like he loves Isreal, but, when we leave him, we lost. it is a relationship between I, you, him, her, David and God, even we see the relationship everyday that just is you and me, he and her, David and his friends and enimies. it is a big sample of Christian lifes according to Old Testament: we have never ever overcome the lessons that David had met thousands years ago.

2. innocent, guilty and accursed are under the law, with Christ saving, we can ask Father to rebuild, but every step, we are the person with new life but still see and maybe experienced too in those law-made events. But God permit us to pray and get Jesus into us since he saved everything. that's the ONLY different we are from David and Saul, we are so lucky but we are not intend to use such save for lucky. 

3. love also from everybody he saved, touching it when innocent, guilty and accursed occurred on us and thanks for everything.