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If you insist, Mr. 潤濤閻
送交者: 文字獄 2008月10月01日21:13:44 於 [五 味 齋] 發送悄悄話
回  答: 美財長給女議長波羅西下跪了?一派胡言!潤濤閻 於 2008-09-28 19:06:30
Mr. 潤濤閻, you said 你去問一下美國人。然後寫個帖子.
So here we go. Please, as a courtesy to a non-enemy who spent more than two hours researching and writing this post, be patient and read through the entire post even though this may not be the language that you, or anybody here for that matter, are most comfortable with.

First let me clarify what is not the subject of our discussion/dispute.
Whether the sources of the media reports was telling the truth about what he/she/they saw is not our topic. In other words we assume the sources of these reports were not lying. We base our discussion on the "reported fact", not actually fact, which may or may not differ, because it was in a private conference room and no photos were taken of the "alleged" kneeling incident.

Then the remaining issues are
1. Whether the journalists are making things up and/or maybe joking.
2. How these reports should be interpreted and,
3. How the Chinese media covered it and, if we dare to venture far, what impression the coverage left in the Chinese audience.

OK, now we google. There is plenty. I'll take the liberty of selecting the following:

Report#1: (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioHc80xKMiATnqCpK0cDKJzk_nPQD93E7PB80)
"
Frank and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi responded angrily, and Paulson, in an attempt to lighten the mood, got down on one knee, said the sources who spoke on condition of anonymity, like the others, because the conversations were private.
"
Key words: "got down on one knee".

Report#2
tttp://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/united_states/article4834487.ece
"
He half-jokingly went down on bended knee and clasped his hands as if in prayer. “I didn’t know you were a Catholic,” Mrs Pelosi, a Catholic herself, quipped to the normally undemonstrative and austere Mr Paulson, a Christian Scientist.
"
Key words: half-jokingly went down on bended knee

Report#3 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/business/26bailout.html?em)
"
In the Roosevelt Room after the session, the Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., literally bent down on one knee as he pleaded with Nancy Pelosi, the House Speaker, not to “blow it up” by withdrawing her party’s support for the package over what Ms. Pelosi derided as a Republican betrayal.
“I didn’t know you were Catholic,” Ms. Pelosi said, a wry reference to Mr. Paulson’s kneeling, according to someone who observed the exchange. She went on: “It’s not me blowing this up, it’s the Republicans.”
Mr. Paulson sighed. “I know. I know.”
"
Key words: literally bent down on one knee

Report#4
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/seven-days-that-brought-paulson-to-his-knees-944760.html
"
By the end of the week, he was on his knees, begging Nancy Pelosi, the Democrat Speaker of the House, to keep his proposal alive. The image of the brick-built Treasury Secretary literally on one knee in the White House Roosevelt Room succinctly captures Mr Paulson's humiliation.
"
Keyword: he was on his knees, literally on one knee.

I think this is enough.

Now tell me Mr. 潤濤閻, do you still think "Paulson didn't and shouldn't do what you guys thought"?

Could all these journalists be making it up or joking, or, in case they were all based on the same joking report, all the other journalists were fooled and took it seriously? Note that these are UK and US media and the Independent and NY Times are not known for telling frivolous jokes on serious matters such as this, or lacking the proficiency in the English language and simply failing to get the joke.

Mr. Paulson may very well have intended it to be a (half)-joke and Pelosi took it as such. But it should be abundantly clear that he did get down on one knee. The kneeling was quite possibly a joke, but the reports were not.

Now the word "literally". You translated it to "文字上" in your article, which is totally wrong, and, apparently after doing your homework, corrected it to "literally在這裡等同於virtually." But out of the two definitions, you conveniently took the one that favored your interpretation.
Indeed it sometimes means "virtually", which is actually a controversial usae. (See Usage guide at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally). Which one to take depends on the context. From all the references above, it's again obvious that the it meant "actually", as contrasted with figuratively, metaphorically.

We can safely come to the conclusion that the Chinese media was not factually wrong in saying 財長鮑爾森單腿下跪. Did they explain the meaning of the act properly, or at all? That's a completely different matter. They may very well have glossed over the possibility, even the probability, that it was meant to be a joke. I would not put too much blame on it given that the subtlety of humor and the religious/cultural meaning of kneeling is often lost in translation. Plus they would be more than happy to gloat over the whole thing.

While you, Mr. 潤濤閻, flatly denied the occurrence of the very act, based on such empty and pompous assertion as 堂堂正正的美國財長,怎麼可能給別人下跪? Did you ever bother to check the facts, as reported by the English language media before you went on the tirade. Go read your article again, and I dare you to tell us that it is free of bold assertion, arrogance and self-righteousness.

Let me point out what many of the readers here believe about you. Deep down, you do not have confidence in the culture in your country of origin, which is all fine, and you believe that a great American, such as Mr Paulson, who is 堂堂正正, 不卑不亢義正言辭, should not, did not, even in a joking way, do things that only befit those 奴性文化根深蒂固的中國人. This is all fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But do not base all your criticism on this pre-disposition, check facts and use reasonable reasoning every time you see something that enhances such predisposition.

This kind of arrogance and, sorry I have to use this word, ignorance, are all too familiar after we observed Western media's coverage of the events in China this past year.

Granted, you may very well be correct. China has a lot of baggage from her tradition and there is huge room for improvement. But this does not give anybody the right to throw cheap and empty criticism based on bias and disposition. And in your case, to be bluntly honest, Mr. 潤濤閻, I don't even believe you have the proficiency in English to understand the American media and much less the culture and politics. You are one of those Chinese who still have a romantic and rosy view of America, which by all means is truly the greatest nation in the world but not in ways as you see it. This puts you, Mr. 潤濤閻, in the double jeopardy of having bias towards both cultures.

About your story of "talked the topic with 7 American people", which again needs the benefit of the doubt. What exactly did they say was a "joke"? Was it that Paulson intended it to be a joke, or the new reports were jokes, or, this whole thing about a bunch of Chinese netters talking about the kneeling was a joke?
7 people was a lot to go around and ask! Did you actually understand what they said? You know it could be pretty subtle and nuanced when it comes to jokes.

Then there is the issue of netiquette. I myself was guilty of using unprovoked harsh language on you, not that those words were outrageous in the context but, directly translated into Chinese, would sound more rude and offensive, especially considering that how offensive words are depends not only on the words themselves but also on the receptor's perception. Hence my apology.
But look at yourself, 那幾個混賬,does not sound civil to me.

Also I bet I would not be alone if I said you actually realized your mistake after the first few posts and you chose to cover it up with another mistake, the literally=virtually assertion. And the distraction of 翻譯的確不是一件單一層面的簡單事情. and other equivocations.
As well put by the other poster 勇於認錯是中國人向來最缺乏的,尤其是知識分子,看來你也不例外!
退一步, 海闊天空, but you missed the chance.

Last, you seem to have a wide interest, so here are some advices, best taken calmly.

1. Subscribe to some English magazines such as Times, Newsweek, The Economist.
2. Read sites like politico.com and http://www.newyorker.com/
3. Watch MSNBC on the left and Fox on the right.
4. Use www.m-w.com often. This is an on-line dictionary.
5. Use spelling and grammar check when writing English.
6. last but not least, use some anger management and increase your capacity for harsh language. Guess what, it's a jungle out there.

Now if any of these sound offensive, you are on your own.

Good night.

文字獄


PS: BTW I did not 問一下美國人, I asked a British guy and an Indian guy. Here is what I got. Feel free to take your pick.

The Indian guy did not believe Paulson actually did it.
Without firmly saying whether Paulson did it, the Brit brought up a good point: If it was figurative speaking, why would you say "on one kneel". You would just say "on his knees".

Actually I did 問一下美國人. I asked My daughter. Who said "Dad, don't you have anything better to do". A VERY GOOD QUESTION!
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