[ 林樵清訪談錄 ]

海外民運的悲劇 ---- 最致命的敵人往往就是“自己人”

（編者按：林樵清先生是海外民運最知名的代表人物之一，是“中國民主團結聯盟”、“中國自由民主黨”、“民聯陣-自民黨”和“中國民主運動海外聯席會議” 的主要創辦者和領導人，同時，他也是台灣“軍情局”、“情報局”最有才幹的特派員之一，監控操縱海外民運組織達十六年之久。）

陳白：台灣政局的變化對海外民運的影響也很大。民進黨上台後，魏京生在台灣那邊遭到冷落，而王丹、曹長青卻很走運，得到大筆經費資助。你是怎麼看的？

林樵清：魏京生失寵是必然的。雖然他也支持台獨，甚至說“山東也可以獨立”，但是，他過於狂妄自大，沒有信用，實在很難進行合作。我們辛辛苦苦為“聯席會議”籌款，可是，經費撥來之後一下子全被他拿走了。有了錢，他就把我們踢開，去找黃慈萍同居。

陳白：據說魏京生在海外民運圈裡已經沒有人緣，而台灣“國安局”對他的評語是“缺乏做事能力”，只有“文宣”價值。

林樵清：凡是他看不順眼的，都被他說成是“共產黨特務”，比如徐文立、王希哲、鮑戈、王軍濤、王丹，還有我。到後來，他還大罵薛偉、倪育賢、齊墨是“台灣狗特務”。黃慈萍現在的日子也不好過，經常哭得兩眼紅腫。

陳白：美國“國家民主基金會”（NED）一直不給魏京生撥發經費，現在又把王丹、王軍濤的《新聞自由導報》的經費停了，是怎麼回事？

林樵清：魏京生的組織（“海外民運聯席會議”）過於政治化，美國不便公開支持。《新聞自由導報》的經費被砍，則可能是因為王丹、王軍濤在台灣“國安局”那裡設有“二王專案”項目，其背景牽涉敏感的情報部門。

陳白：王丹、王軍濤聲稱《新聞自由導報》是“六四”以後一百多位中國新聞工作者在美國所創立的追求民主自由理想的活動平台，美國方面不應該為省錢而停止資助。

林樵清：停發經費一事跟美國“國家民主基金會”節省開支沒有關係。近年來NED經費總額增幅加大，而他們本來撥給《新聞自由導報》才幾萬美元，僅夠吳仁華（編輯）一人的工資。當然，所謂“一百多位新聞工作者”明顯是假的，他們總共不過幾個人而已。

陳白：吳弘達的“勞改基金會”和“中國觀察”網站，以及劉青、譚競嫦的“中國人權”理事會和《華夏電子報》，每年都獲得NED數十萬美元的經費，兩者反差實在太大了。

林樵清：NED主管人員在審核海外民運人士申請資助的項目時，往往會向吳弘達、劉青了解他們的情況。吳和劉不願意看到別人拿到錢，於是從中作梗，搞一些小動作。“中國發展聯合會”和《大參考》電子報本來很有希望獲得資助，結果都被劉青和吳弘達破壞了。

陳白：據說劉青、吳弘達早就與魏京生、王丹鬧翻了，在雙方的較量過程當中，魏京生和王丹都處於下風，劉青和吳弘達最終贏了這場“資源”爭奪戰。

林樵清：民運分子最大的悲哀就是“自己人”往往正是最致命的敵人。《中國之春》曾經擁有台灣來的大筆秘密經費，被徐邦泰、伍凡霸占着，不按章程交出來，還策動分裂組織。後來伍凡、王德耀與徐邦泰鬧翻，揪出徐的貪污問題。台灣怕引火燒身，索性斷了資助。

陳白：台灣切斷經費，造成他們撐不下去，只好被迫接受台方要求調整人事的方案，隨後再繼續發放經費，這其實也是台灣方面解決海外民運紛爭的措施之一。

林樵清：是的。民進黨政府正是通過這樣的方法，將他們所支持的張偉國和王丹分別扶上了《中國之春》和《北京之春》“社長”寶座。目前，台灣扶植的三個重點項目是：薛偉和王丹的《北京之春》、譚競嫦和胡平的“中國人權”、王軍濤和陳破空的“憲政之友”。

陳白：在美國，法輪功和“藏獨”的勢力遠遠超過海外民運，而法輪功發起“退黨”活動，大有取代海外民運之勢，台灣方面肯定也會倚重法輪功，為他們設立相應的資助項目。

林樵清：海外民運人數不多，全球加起來才一百來人，而黨派和團體竟有四、五十個之多。每當他們相互攻擊時，總是說對方是“中共特務”，令台灣非常頭疼。法輪功沒有這樣的麻煩事。唐柏橋很聰明，搶在薛偉、劉青之前與法輪功合作，難怪劉青要讓倪育賢、陳破空去對付他。

陳白：說到底，民運內部每次吵架都是為了爭“資源”。只有顯示自己是“主流”，別人是“非主流”，這樣才能夠得到經費資助，才能夠保護既得利益。

林樵清：劉青是這方面的高手。他把魏泉寶安插在“正義黨”里，把陳破空安插在魏京生身邊，把唐柏橋安插在王丹那裡，後來又把陳破空安插在彭明那裡，安插到王軍濤和王丹那裡，目的都是為了探聽消息和挑撥離間，最後設法讓他們全都玩完，落光羽毛不如雞。

陳白：徐水良把民運分為“流氓民運”、“正派民運”、“特務民運”、“主流民運”，並且說海外民運各組織已經被中共所領導，一半以上的人都是“共特”，是否言過其實？

林樵清：先把別人說成特務，那麼自己肯定就不是特務了；先把別人說成是流氓，那麼自己肯定就很正派了；既然別人都有問題，那麼自己便是民運的“主流”或“核心層”了。徐水良的邏輯大概就是這樣的吧。當然，徐水良主要還是受了劉青、薛偉的利用。

陳白：借徐水良的那張髒嘴去詆毀眾多知名人物，是劉青、薛偉的高招。有時候劉青還利用陳破空，薛偉還利用張菁，去誹謗、誣衊他人。可見民運“這潭渾水不好趟”。

林樵清：其實劉青、薛偉從來就沒有把徐水良當“朋友”看。徐當了“民聯”的“主席”，而且還是“民運理論家”，卻進不了“北春”的班子，即使在“機關刊物”掛個名也不許；此外，“中國人權”和“公民議政”都不許他進。凡是薪水高的、可出名的都沒他的份。

陳白：徐水良還說《世界日報》是中共的喉舌，往往它捧誰，誰就一定有問題，它貶誰，誰就是“真朋友”。他一再指責《世界日報》報道鮑戈、謝萬軍、“正義黨”消息。

林樵清：徐是民運代表人物，不料他到美國的消息，《世界日報》只在次要的版面作簡短報道。相反鮑戈老母去美國，《世界日報》卻重複報道，先是報道她獲得護照，後來曾慧燕又寫長篇報道說鮑母即將來美，最後又刊登了鮑母在機場與兒子擁抱的彩色大照片及報道。

陳白：我不太相信《世界日報》是“中共的喉舌”。當年，台灣李登輝政府資助王若望召開“民聯”、“民陣”合併大會的八萬美元，就是通過《世界日報》報社分兩次撥發的。

林樵清：曾慧燕報道鮑戈祝賀北京申辦奧運成功時，用了大篇幅和大標題，而把魏京生、吳弘達及“學自聯”反對申奧的消息，只作了插敘，一筆帶過。不過，我想《世界日報》這樣處理自有他們的道理，新聞是他們的專業。曾慧燕總不會是“中共特務”吧。

陳白：唐柏橋也在《大紀元時報》上說《世界日報》“親共”。這使我想起以前徐邦泰的一句話----“沒有世界日報，就沒有海外民運。海外民運實際上是‘世界日報民運’。”

林樵清：《大紀元》當然巴不得借唐柏橋之口去攻擊《世界日報》。但是民運人士這樣做，其結果是以後很難得到許多中立媒體的同情。劉青、張偉國、胡平、林保華、張先樑是《大紀元》的編委、顧問、專欄作家，他們為什麼不親自出頭？得罪《世界日報》沒好處。

陳白：徐文立出來後搞了個“民主黨流亡黨部”和“中國民主政黨聯盟”，好像也沒有做出什麼富有成效的事情來，也沒有能夠整合海外的“中國民主黨”。

林樵清：要從台灣搞到錢，先得建一個組織，立一個項目。徐為了爭得資源，明知道薛偉是台灣“軍情局”特工，卻仍把“政黨聯盟”的實際控制權交給薛，是很不道德的，等於出賣了“聯盟”。薛偉主要是想通過“聯盟”來抵消魏京生的“聯席會議”，與徐一拍即合。

陳白：照常理說，薛偉目前應該着重扶持王丹，怎麼跑去徐文立那邊？當初徐文立、王有才、秦永敏在中國被判刑，他的《北春》美國版卻拒絕在封面上刊登他們的像片。

林樵清：薛偉和劉青其實都不願看到王丹擴展影響，擔心被他奪去資源。王丹亂搞同性戀的內幕，其實就是他們拋給台灣《TVBS》周刊的。手法如同當初劉青搞臭魏京生一樣----劉把有關魏的負面消息拋給《華爾街日報》記者，結果魏被世人看作是一個精神病人。

陳白：您是支持魏京生組建“海外民運聯席會議”的，而且，據說以前您和魏京生的妹妹魏玲合作得很默契，現在你們之間還有來往嗎？

林樵清：海外民運的風波使我寒心，我已決定徹底隱退，安享晚年。有些人，以前我把他們當朋友，可是他們卻在背後捅刀子；有些人，以前被我誤傷的，回過頭來想想，他們其實是好人。魏玲與尉小鵬比較親近。本來，我們只是工作關係而已。

The Tragicomedy of the Overseas Chinese Democratic Movement

An interview with Lin Qiaoqing (林樵清), who was a very famous member of the overseas Chinese democracy movement, being the founder and leader of a number of organizations. All this time, he had been an agent of the Taiwan intelligence service. He is now retired.

Chen Bai (陳 白): The changes in the political situation in Taiwan affects the overseas democratic movement. Since the Democratic Progressive Party (民進黨) assumed power, Wei Jingsheng (魏京生) was ignored by Taiwan, while Wang Dan (王丹) and Cao Changqing (曹長青) got lucky and received large amounts of funds. How do you see it?

Lin Qiaoqing: It was inevitable that Wei Jingsheng would go out of favor. Although he supports Taiwan independence, and he even said "Even Shandong province can become independent," he is too egotistical and unreliable, and therefore impossible to work with. We worked so hard to finding money for the Chinese Alliance for Democracy (聯席會議). But he took all the funds and then he kicked us in order to cohabitate with Huang Ciping (黃慈萍).

Chen: It is said that Wei Jingsheng has no friends anymore in the overseas democratic circle. The Taiwan National Security Bureau characterized him as "lacking ability to do things" and he only has "propaganda" value.

Lin: Anyone whom he does not like, he calls them "Communist spies", including Xu Wenli (徐文立), Wang Xizhe (王希哲), Bao Ge (鮑戈), Wang Juntao (王軍濤), Wang Dan and myself. Later on, he even loudly condemned Xue Wei (薛偉), Ni Yuxian (倪育賢) and Qi Mo (齊墨) as "Taiwan dog spies." Huang Ciping is not having a good time right now, and her eyes are often red from crying.

Chen: The US National Endowment for Democracy refused to fund Wei Jingsheng, and now they have cut off funding to Wang Dan and Wang Juntao's Press Free Guide. What is the deal?

Lin: Wei Jingsheng' organization ---- Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition ---- was too politicized, and that is why the American don't want to publicly support it. The reason why Press Free Guide has it funding cuts off is probably because Wang Dan and Wang Juntao had been hooking up with Taiwan to foster independence over there.

Chen: Wang Dan and Wang Juntao claimed that Press Free Guide is a platform formed by more than 100 Chinese media workers in the United States to pursue the ideals of democracy and freedom after June 4. The Americans should not have cut off the funding just to save money.

Lin: The funding stoppage had nothing to do with the NED wanting to save any money. In recent years, the budget for the NED has grown a lot. They only give Press Free Guide some tens of thousand of US dollars per year, just enough to pay for the editor Wu Renhua (吳仁華)'s salary. Of course, the so-called "more than one hundred media workers" is obviously false, and they have no more than a handful of people.

Chen: Harry Hongda Wu (吳弘達)'s Labor Reform Foundation (勞改基金會) and Observe China (中國觀察) website, Sharon Hom (譚競嫦)'s Human Rights In China and Huaxiabao can get hundreds of thousands of US dollars from the NED. It is a big difference.

Lin: When the NED administrator ????uates the proposals for funding from overseas democratic proponents, they often consult with Wu Hongda and Liu Qing (劉青). Neither Wu nor Liu want to see anyone else get money, so they always erect some obstacles. The Chinese Development Alliance (中國發展聯合會) and Dacankao (大參考) were hoping to get some funding, but Liu Qing and Harry Hongda Wu barred them.

Chen: Supposedly, Liu Qing and Wu Hongda have split away from Wei Jingsheng and Wang Dan. During the battle between the sides, Wei Jingsheng and Wang Dan were losing and so Liu Qing and Harry Hongda Wu won the fight for the "resources."

Lin: The greatest tragedy of the overseas democratic movement is that your "own people" are often your most deadly enemy. China Spring (中國之春) once had large amounts of secret funds from Taiwan. Xu Bangtai(徐邦泰) and Wu Fan (伍凡) seized the money and refused to hand it over according to procedure, so the organization was split up. Afterwards, Wu Fan and Wang Deyao fell out with Xu Bangtai and revealed Xu's corruption problems. Taiwan wanted no part of any of this, and they cut off the funding.

Chen: When Taiwan cut off the funds, they could no longer continue. So they had to accede Taiwan's demands on reorganization in order to get funded again. Actually, this is one way for Taiwan to resolve the fights among overseas democracy organization.

Lin: Yes. The DPP government in Taiwan used this method to elevate Zhang Weiguo and Wang Dan to become the "publishers" of China Spring and Beijing Spring (北京之春) respectively. At the moment, Taiwan is nurturing three major projects: Xue Wei and Wang Dan's Beijing Spring, Tan Jingchang and Hu Ping (胡平)'s Human Rights in China and Wang Juntao and Chen Pokong (陳破空)'s Friends of Practical Politics (憲政之友).

Chen: In the United States, the Falun Gong and the Tibetan independence movement are far more powerful than the overseas democratic movements. The Falun Gong started the "Resign from the Party" movement, and seems to have overtaken the overseas democratic movement. Taiwan is definitely counting on the Falun Gong, and have set up appropriate projects to fund them.

Lin: There are not many people in the overseas democratic movement. It adds up to only 100 people around the world, but somehow there are forty to fifty organizations. Whenever they attack each other, they label the other as "Communist spies" and this gives Taiwan a headache. There is no such problem with Falun Gong. Tang Baiqiao (唐柏橋) is very smart, and he jumped ahead of Xue Wei and Liu Qing to collaborate with the Falun Gong. No wonder Liu Qing must let Ni Yuxian oppose Tang.

Chen: The bottom line is that the internal fights within the overseas democratic movement is always about 'resources'. You can only get financial support if you prove that you are the "mainstream" while everybody else is not, and then you can protect your own interests.

Lin: Liu Qing is a master in this. He inserted Wei Quanbao (魏泉寶) inside the Justice Party (正義黨) and Chen Pokong with Wang Dan first and later with Peng Ming (彭明), Wang Juntao and Wang Dan to serve as spies and agent provocateur and then caused them to fold completely.

Chen: Xu Shuiliang (徐水良) had classified the overseas democratic movement into: "hooligan democratic movement", "proper democratic movement", "spy democratic movement" and "mainstream democratic movement." He also said that many overseas democratic organizations are led by the Chinese communists and that more than half the people are "Communist spies." Is that an exaggeration?

Lin: If you say that someone else is a spy, then you mustn't be a spy; if you say that someone else is a hooligan, then you must be proper; if everybody else has problems, then you must be the "mainstream" or "core" of the overseas democratic movement. That was probably Xu Shuiliang's logic. Of course, Xu Shuliang was principally used by Liu Qing and Xue Wei.

Chen: Liu Qing and Xue Wei were brilliant in using Xu Shuiliang's voice to smear any number of famous people. Sometimes, Liu Qing uses Chen Pokong while Xue Wei uses Zhang Jing (張菁) to slander and smear other people.

Lin: Actually, Liu Qing and Xue Wei have never treated Xu Shuiliang as a 'friend.' When Xu became the president of the Chinese Alliance for Democracy as well as a "democratic movement theoretician", he was not admitted into the Beijing Spring group, so he could not even get his name listed in the organization's publication. Also, Human Rights In China and Civilian Political Discourse (公民議政) will not admit him either. Anything that pays in terms of money and fame is out of bounds for him.

Chen: Xu Shuiliang said that the World Journal (世界日報) is a Communist propaganda tool. If the newspaper praises someone, that person must be problematic; if the person disparages someone, that person must be a 'true friend.' He condemned the World Journal for carrying information on Bao Ge and Xie Wanjun (謝萬軍) and the Justice Party.

Lin: Xu is a representative of the democratic movement. But the World Journal published the news of his arrival in the United States very briefly. By contrast, when Bao Ge's mother came to the United States, the World Journal repeatedly reported on her. First, they reported how she got a passport, Then Zeng Huiyan (曾慧燕) wrote a long report that Bao Ge's mother will be arriving. Then, they showed a report and a color photograph of Bao hugging his mother at the airport.

Chen: I can't quite believe that the World Journal is a "propaganda tool of the Chinese Communists." Back then, when the Lee Tenghui (李登輝) government of Taiwan funded Wang Ruowang (王若望) to hold the meeting to merge the Democratic Alliance and the Democratic Front, the 80,000 US dollars was distributed by the World Journal in two separate payments.

Lin: Zeng Huiyan reported on Bao Ge being happy about Beijing winning the bid for the 2008 Olympics with a long article and a big headline, but she only made a brief mention of how Wei Jingsheng, Harry Hongda Wu and the Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars in the US (學自聯) opposed the decision. But I think that the World Journal must have a reason to do this. After all, news is their profession. Zeng Huiyan is unlikely to be a "Communist spy."

Chen: Tang Baiqiao said in the Epoch Times（大紀元時報） that the World Journal（世界日報） is "friendly towards the Communists." This reminds me of what Xu Bangtai once said -- "Without the World Journal, there would be no overseas Chinese democratic movement. The overseas Chinese democratic movement is actually the 'World Journal democratic movement'."

Lin: The Epoch Times was obviously happy to use Tang Baiqiao to attack the World Journal. But when the democracy activists do that, the result is that they lose a lot of sympathy from the neutral media. Liu Qing, Zhang Huiguo (張偉國), Hu Ping, Lin Baohua (林保華) and Zhang Xianliang (張先樑) are editors, consultants and columnists for the Epoch Times. Why won't they speak out themselves? There was no point in offending the World Journal.

Chen: After Xu Wenli came out, he started a Democratic Party In Exile (民主黨流亡黨部) and an Alliance of Chinese Democratic Political Parties (中國民主政黨聯盟), but he does not seem to have accomplished anything effective, and he has not been able to unite the overseas "Chinese democratic parties."

Lin: If you want to get money from Taiwan, you must build an organization and set up a project. In order to get the resources, Xu knew that Xue Wei was a spy from Taiwan intelligence, but he still turned over control of the Alliance of Political Parties to Xue. That is immoral, and he has sold out the Alliance. Xue Wei wants mainly to use the Alliance to neutralize Wei Jingsheng's Chinese Alliance for Democracy and that is why he got along with Xu immediately.

Chen: Logically, Xue Wei should be propping up Wang Dan. So why is he with Xu Wenli? When Xu Wenli, Wang Youcai (王有才) and Qin Yongmin (秦永敏) were sentenced in China, the North American edition of Beijing Spring refused to feature their photographs on the magazine's front cover.

Lin: Neither Xue Wei nor Liu Qing want to see Wang Dan collect any influence. The revelations about Wang Dan's homosexuality was forwarded by them to Taiwan's TVBS Weekly. The process was identical to what Liu Qing once did to Wei Jingsheng ---- Liu gave negative information about Wei Jingsheng to The Wall Street Journal, so that Wei ended up being regarded as a mental case.

Chen: You supported Wei Jingsheng setting up the Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition. Furthermore, you were supposed to get along very well with Wei Jingsheng's younger sister Wei Ling (魏玲). Do you still communicate with each other?

Lin: The overseas democratic movement has disheartened me. I have decided to withdraw completely and live my remaining years in peace. There are some people whom I regarded as friends, but they stabbed me in the back; there are those that I injured by mistake, but they were actually good people in retrospect. Wei Ling and Yu Xiaopeng (尉小鵬) are closer to me. But then, we were just work associates.