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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Interview With Joel Osteen
Aired June 20, 2005 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRAN????. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Joel Osteen, evangelism's hottest rising star, pastor for the biggest congregation in the United States. He literally filled the shoes of his late father who founded the church, and wait until you hear what he had to overcome to do it. Pastor Joel Osteen is here for the hour. We'll take your calls. It's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Joel Osteen is the author of the number one "New York Times" best-seller, "Your Best Life Now." There you see its cover. "Seven Steps to Living at Your Full Potential." There is now a compendium been published called "Your Best Life Now Journal," a guide to reaching that full potential. Joel Osteen is pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. His father before him. He has been called the smiling preacher. We met.
JOEL OSTEEN, EVANGELIST: Yes.
KING: Long ago with your father.
OSTEEN: We did. We met at a charity event for the Heart Association down there with Dr. DeBakey, I believe, or Dr. Cooley (ph).
KING: Dr. Cooley -- about seven, eight years ago.
OSTEEN: You were my dad's favorite. And you were sitting up at the table and I said, I didn't know any better then. I said, daddy, let's go, I'll introduce you to him. Like I knew you or something. And I did. It just made his day. We didn't meet for 10 seconds, but he loved you.
KING: Why are you a preacher?
OSTEEN: You know, I never was for 17 years. I worked with my dad there at the church. He tried to get me to minister. I didn't have it in me. I worked behind the scenes. I loved doing production and things. But when my father died, I just knew -- I don't know how to explain it, it sounds kind of odd, but I just knew down to here I was supposed to step up to the plate and pastor the church. And it was odd because I had never preached before. But I just knew I was supposed to do it.
KING: Did it come easily?
OSTEEN: It did. It came -- it came somewhat easily. I had to study. I was nervous. Still get nervous. But it did. I believe God gives you the grace to do what you need to do. And the great thing about it is the people were so loyal to my father. They wanted one of his sons to take over. And daddy had never really necessarily raised anybody up under him.
KING: What do the other sons do?
OSTEEN: Well, my brother Paul is a surgeon and he works with us there at the church. He gave up his practice to work with us and I have other sisters and brothers that work, as well.
KING: Is -- have you always believed?
OSTEEN: I have always believed. I grew up, you know, my parents were a good Christian people. They showed us love in the home. My parents were the same in the pulpit as they were at home. I think that's where a lot of preachers' kids get off base sometimes. Because they don't see the same things at both places. But I've always believed. I saw it through my parents. And I just grew up believing.
KING: But you're not fire and brimstone, right? You're not pound the decks and hell and dam nation?
OSTEEN: No. That's not me. It's never been me. I've always been an encourager at heart. And when I took over from my father he came from the Southern Baptist background and back 40, 50 years ago there was a lot more of that. But, you know, I just -- I don't believe in that. I don't believe -- maybe it was for a time. But I don't have it in my heart to condemn people. I'm there to encourage them. I see myself more as a coach, as a motivator to help them experience the life God has for us.
KING: But don't you think if people don't believe as you believe, they're somehow condemned?
OSTEEN: You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I'm for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it's not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that's God's for you. You can live a good life no matter what's happened to you. And so I don't know. I know there is condemnation but I don't feel that's my place.
KING: You've been criticized for that, haven't you?
OSTEEN: I have. I have. Because I don't know.
KING: Good news guy, right?
OSTEEN: Yeah. But you know what? It's just in me. I search my heart and I think, God, is this what I'm supposed to do? I made a decision when my father died, you know what? I'm going to be who I feel like I'm supposed to be. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Not the end of the world if I'm not the pastor ...
KING: Where were you ordained? OSTEEN: I was ordained from the church there, Lakewood, under my dad's ministry.
KING: So you didn't go to seminary?
OSTEEN: No, sir, I didn't.
KING: They can just make you a minister?
OSTEEN: You can, you can.
KING: That's kind of an easy way in.
OSTEEN: Yeah, but I think it happens more than you think. But I didn't go to seminary. I have a lot of great friends that did. But I didn't. But I did study 17 years under my dad. You know ...
KING: Are you a pastor? A reverend? Legally what are you?
OSTEEN: I'm a reverend and a pastor. A pastor of the church. I go by usually pastor.
KING: You can marry people?
OSTEEN: Yes, sir.
KING: So the church in a sense ordained you?
OSTEEN: Right. And then you're ordained through the State of Texas.
KING: How'd it grow so much?
OSTEEN: I don't know, Larry. I don't know if there was one thing. I think part of it was my dad had such a great foundation. Then all of a sudden here comes somebody 40 years younger, just new energy. New life. You know. I think one thing is my dad had a television ministry to start with. So all of a sudden here I was 36 years old and I was on television. Well, most young men that age, they're building a congregation and it costs a lot of money to be on television and all that. So all of a sudden there was a young minister across America. So I don't know if it's part of that. I think part of it is the message of hope and that I'm for people.
KING: You're nondenominational?
OSTEEN: We are, we are.
KING: Your father, though, was ...
OSTEEN: He was Southern Baptist. But he left that way back in the early '60s. And then he just started Lakewood Church. And we've always been independent and just for everybody.
KING: Many evangelists feel that the church, the church itself, the religion, has failed. You share that view? OSTEEN: Well, I think in a sense when you see certain things in society you would think that. But in another sense I see faith in America. Faith in the world. At an all-time high today. When I was growing up it was a big deal to have a church of 1,000. Now there's churches of 10,000. So many of them. So I think in one sense I can agree with that point. But in another sense I see a real spiritual awakening taking place.
KING: How many people come to your church?
OSTEEN: We have about 30,000 each weekend.
KING: How do you hold them?
OSTEEN: We have multiple services. It holds 8,000. But we're about to move into a new facility. But we just do a lot of services.
KING: You work all day Sunday?
OSTEEN: We do. And Saturday. We do one Saturday night and then four -- three Sunday and one Spanish. So it's a lot of work.
KING: You write all your own?
OSTEEN: I do. I do all my own research and do all my own service.
KING: And when are you on television?
OSTEEN: We're on different times. We're in the top 25 markets on one of the network stations.
KING: Sundays usually?
OSTEEN: Yes, sir. Usually Sundays.
KING: Are you asking for money?
OSTEEN: We never have. Never have. Since my dad started. I started a television ministry for my father back in '83. That was one decision we made. We just don't ask for money. We never have, we never will. You know, it's -- I don't criticize people that do. Some of them have to. But I just, I don't want anything to pull away from the message.
KING: How do you get the money to get the time on television?
OSTEEN: The church supports it.
KING: How does the church get the money?
OSTEEN: Well, they just give. There are just a lot of them, they're faithful, they're loyal people, they believe in giving. And the other thing too, what's interesting, Larry, we don't ask for money on television. But people see your heart. People send in money like you wouldn't imagine to underwrite it. KING: Really? Without your ever saying order this medal?
OSTEEN: Exactly. It's a testament to, you know, I think if people can see your heart is right. I'm certainly not the only one. But I don't get on there and beg for money. People send it in. You'd be amazed.
KING: Do you think there's too much of that, send in this, my new book is out?
OSTEEN: I think in general there probably is. Because people are so skeptical anyway. Why are you on there? You just want my money. We just try to stay away from it. I don't know if there is or not. To me sometimes I think, you know. I would -- I think people get on and they have to make the television audience underwrite it. And then they spend their time doing that.
KING: So it's self-fulfilling. Billy Graham was here last Thursday.
OSTEEN: I saw.
KING: Might have been his last interview. Is he a hero to the evangelists?
OSTEEN: He is a hero to us all. His life of integrity. Somebody that can stick with for that long and just stick with his message. What I love about Dr. Graham is he stayed on course. He didn't get sidetracked. That's what happens to so many people today. It's a good lesson for me, a good example for me to say, you know what, Joel, you may have a lot now but I want to be here 40 years from now sitting with you.
KING: Do you share Billy's beliefs of life after death in a sense of going somewhere?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. We probably agree on 99 percent. I do. I believe there's a heaven you know. Afterwards, there's, you know, a place called hell. And I believe it's when we have a relationship with God and his son Jesus and that's what the Bible teaches us. I believe it.
KING: Our guest is Joel Osteen. The senior pastor for Lakewood Church in Houston, the author of "Your Best Life Now," amazing bestseller. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: See people are watching you. Especially your children. They're taking in every single thing you do. They are like video cameras with legs. And they are always in the record mode. They learn more from what you do than from what you say. Like that old saying, I'd rather see a sermon than hear one anyday.
And when you are tempted to compromise and just take the easy way out, I challenge you to think generationally. Know that every right choice you make you are making it a little bit easier on those that come after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Our guest, Joel Osteen. Why do you think "Your Best Life Now" did as well as it did?
OSTEEN: It surprised me.
KING: There's a lot of books about improving yourself.
OSTEEN: Yeah. I don't know. I think coming from the Christian base, and I think the fact that I don't know, it's a book of encouragement and inspiration. And to me it seems like there's so much pulling us down in our society today. There's so much negative. Most of my book is about how you can live a good life today in spite of all that. So I think that had a big part of it.
KING: But it doesn't quote a lot of biblical passages until the back of the book, right?
OSTEEN: It doesn't do a whole lot of it. My message, I wanted to reach the mainstream. We've reached the church audience. So I just try to, what I do is just try to teach practical principles. I may not bring the ????ure in until the end of my sermon and i might feel bad about that. Here's the thought. I talked yesterday about living to give. That's what a life should be about. I brought in at the end about some of the ????ures that talk about that. But same principal in the book.
KING: Is it hard to lead a Christian life?
OSTEEN: I don't think it's that hard. To me it's fun. We have joy and happiness. Our family -- I don't feel like that at all. I'm not trying to follow a set of rules and stuff. I'm just living my life.
KING: But you have rules, don't you?
OSTEEN: We do have rules. But the main rule to me is to honor God with your life. To life a life of integrity. Not be selfish. You know, help others. But that's really the essence of the Christian faith.
KING: That we live in deeds?
OSTEEN: I don't know. What do you mean by that?
KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything ...
KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...
KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.
KING: The Senate apologized last week for slavery. You think the Southern Baptists and a lot of the churches in the South owe some apology, too?
OSTEEN: I've never thought about it. Because I just didn't -- wasn't raised in it.
KING: But you know its history.
OSTEEN: Oh, absolutely. I think that it would never hurt; anything we could do to make amends, the better it can be. That's what I love about our church. It's made up of all different races. That's what life should all be about. That's what God wants it to be.
KING: Doesn't it hurt you that people 50 years ago talking about God and Christ also didn't -- Martin Luther King call 11:00 a.m. Sunday morning the most segregated hour in America? Does it bother you to know that predecessors of yours ...
OSTEEN: Yeah, absolutely bothers me. It's not right. It's a shame, and I don't know how they could do it with a pure heart to God but, you know what? It happened.
KING: I want to get to the seven steps. But when the people call you cotton candy theology. Someone said you're very good but there's no spiritual nourishment. I don't know what that means ...
OSTEEN: I think, I hear it meaning a lot of different things. One I think a lot of it is that I'm not condemning people. And I don't know, but Larry I talk, I mean every week in our church we're dealing with people that are fighting cancer, that have their lost loved ones. That are going through a divorce. I mean, I talk about those issues, and to me I don't see how it can get any more, you know, real than that. So I don't know what the criticism is.
KING: What is the prosperity gospel?
OSTEEN: I think the prosperity gospel in general is -- well I don't know. I hear it too. I don't know. I think what sometimes you see is it's just all about money. That's not what I believe. It's the attitude of your heart, and so you know, we believe -- but I do believe this, that God wants us to be blessed. He wants us to be able to send our kids to college, excel in our careers. But prosperity to me, Larry, is not just money, it's having health. What good is money if you don't have health?
KING: Also many in the Christian belief are wary of too much material, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Yeah, I think some of them are. But to me, you know, I hope people get blessed if they can handle it right. Because it takes money to do good. You know to do things for people. To spread the good news. So I think it's all a matter of your heart.
KING: You think other preachers are envious of you?
OSTEEN: If they are, I don't feel it. I've got so many good friends. And the ones I know are encouraging me. I don't hear anything but good things from them. I hope they're not. Because we're all in it together.
KING: You want to do this the rest of your life?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. I know it's what I'm called to do. I feel like this is why I was born. Even though I never dreamed I'd be doing it. But I know now I never dreamed I'd be able to get to help people like this. I never dreamed it was in me. I didn't know I could get up to speak in front of people and impact people's lives. I didn't know I could do that. I was shy.
KING: We'll get to those seven steps in a minute. We'll be taking your calls, as well. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: And our attitude should be, I refuse to dwell on the negative things that have happened to me. I'm not going to go around thinking about all that I've lost. I'm not going to focus on what could have been or should have done. No, I'm going to draw the line in the sand. This is a new day and I'm going to start moving forward knowing that God has a bright future in store for me. If you do that, God will give you a new beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Joel Osteen. The book "Your Best Life Now" a major bestseller. "Seven steps to living at your full potential." The new one "Your Best Life Now, A Journal." It's a guide for the earlier book, right? You used it as a compendium, in a sense. OSTEEN: That's exactly right. It's just something to put your notes in. Kind of help you get along there.
KING: Don't you ever doubt?
OSTEEN: No. I don't -- I wouldn't say that I do. I guess I do and I don't think about it too much.
KING: Well, 9/11.
OSTEEN: Well, yeah.
KING: Didn't you say what? Why?
OSTEEN: You do. You definitely do.
KING: And how do you answer?
OSTEEN: To me it comes back and God's given us all our own free will. And it's a shame but people choose ...
KING: The people in the building didn't have free will.
OSTEEN: But the thing is, people can choose to do evil with that will. And that's what's unfortunate. But you know, of course you always doubt. I mean, you have to override it. But we see in the church every week, somebody's coming up and my baby was not born properly and you know, all these other things. You just ...
KING: But don't you want to know, why would an omnipotent -- assuming he is omnipotent -- God permit that?
OSTEEN: I don't know, Larry. I don't know it all.
KING: A deformed baby had nothing to do with free will.
OSTEEN: Exactly. I don't claim to know it all. I just think that trusting God means we're going to have unanswered questions and God is so much bigger than us we're never going to understand them all. And I tell people that have lost a child or that have gone through some kind of tragedy, you've got to have a file in your mind called and I don't understand it file. And you've got to put it in there and not try to figure it out and not let it ruin the rest of your life and not get bitter. And that's what we see so many people do.
KING: But you're not asking for blind faith. Don't you want people to question?
OSTEEN: Oh, I do. I think you do at a certain point. But I don't think you can let something ruin -- I've seen too many people angry at God and they live the rest of their life that way. You've got to say God, I don't understand why this happened to me but I'm going to move on. The worst thing we can do is wallow around in self- pity. I talk in the book, too, about letting go of the past. I know it's hard. I'm making it sound easy, it's not. But sometimes you've got to say I don't understand it. We were all praying for my dad. He was 77 when he died. You'd think we've got a church full of people praying but I don't know. It was probably his time to go, obviously. But I don't understand until (ph) some of the others.
KING: Do you ever involve politics in the sermons?
OSTEEN: Never do. My father never ...
KING: Never mention President Bush?
OSTEEN: Well, only to pray. Only to pray. We prayed for President Bush, Clinton, all of them. But I've never been political. My father hasn't. I just, I have no ...
KING: How about issues that the church has feelings about? Abortion? Same-sex marriages?
OSTEEN: Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don't go there. I just ...
KING: You have thoughts, though.
OSTEEN: I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don't think that a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don't think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know, a better way to live your life. But I'm not going to condemn those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for everybody.
KING: You don't call them sinners?
OSTEEN: I don't.
KING: Is that a word you don't use?
OSTEEN: I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don't go down the road of condemning.
KING: You believe in the Bible literally?
OSTEEN: I do, I do.
KING: Noah had an ark and Adam and Eve?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. I believe that. I believe it all.
KING: Isn't it hard to accept that one day appeared two people and they ate an apple and ...
OSTEEN: It is. But it's also hard, too, to look at our bodies and say, my brother's a surgeon, how could our bodies be made like this? We couldn't have just come from something. It's just hard, when my child was born I thought seeing him in the little sonogram I thought look at that. He's got eyes. How is that developing? It's just, I don't know. I look at it like that.
KING: The book describes seven steps to living at full potential. I want to ask you about -- Choose to be happy. Now, how the heck do you do that?
OSTEEN: Well, I think, Larry. It's just an attitude we've got to get up and make a decision every single day. I mean, what so many people today do, they focus on what they don't have instead of what they do have. They focus on what's wrong instead of what's right. And I believe that all of us, if we want to, can be happy right where we are. We may not be laughing our heads off but we can get up and say, you know what, I'm in a tough situation, but this is where God has me and I'm going to make the most of it. And I think that that's where so many of us miss it today. We're waiting to be happy one day.
KING: How about the Eastern philosophy that says you're not entitled to today. Today is a gift. So -- it doesn't matter if it's raining. It's a beautiful gift today.
OSTEEN: I've not heard it. But I'd degree with it.
KING: You aren't entitled to today.
OSTEEN: Well, that's right. It's a gift God gave us. What if we weren't here? To me, I say it all the time, every day we live negative and discouraged and unhappy, that's a day we've wasted. And I'm not going to waste you know, just because I don't get my way or something happens.
KING: Another seven steps -- one of the seven steps is live to give, charity is, in the Talmud, the greatest thing of all.
OSTEEN: Yeah. I believe it is. I believe that's the whole spirit of Christianity is, you know, having a lifestyle of giving. Not giving at Christmas, not giving every once in awhile but having an attitude to give. I've always said this, if you'll get up and make it your business to make somebody else's day, God will make your own day.
KING: I love to give.
OSTEEN: I know.
KING: Giving is selfish. You get a great reward.
OSTEEN: I know, you really do. That's what life is all about. We were not made to be ingrown. I believe, maybe I'm off. But that's probably 95 percent of unhappiness is selfishness. I'm only focused on my problems or thinking about how I get ahead in my career. And certainly we want to do some of that. But we need to get up and focus on others.
KING: Find strength through adversity. Bad is good.
OSTEEN: Well, I think the way I believe that god won't let something come into your life unless he's going to use it for your good. Now you've got to keep the right attitude for that to happen. But that helps us in our struggles to, say you know what? God's going to get something good out of this. This is a tough time but I'm just going to believe, I'm going to trust. I may not see it for a year or five years but I believe it's going to turn around. And a great example is in my dad's death. My dad and I were best friends. Worked with him for 17 years. I told before my wife I don't know what I'm going to do when my dad dies. I loved him. We were good friends. But when my father died the darkest hour of my life is when I felt that stinging here, that I was supposed to step up and preach.
So I see how in my darkest hour something new was born. I believe that God always opens up a new door.
KING: Do you know you're getting through to people? Billy Graham used to know it because they came down and gave themselves to Christ. How do you know?
OSTEEN: I feel the same way. I can see it there in the church when I see my book do what it did. And when we go to arenas across the country and every one of them's been sold out. Its just, you know, we get thousands of letters and stuff. And you know, I feel like we are, you know. I feel like we're making a difference.
KING: We'll be right back. We'll include your phone calls for Joel Osteen, senior pastor of the Lakewood Church in Houston. Reportedly the largest, fastest growing congregation in the United States and the author of "Your Best Life Now" and now "Your Best Life Now Journal." Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
