第三個回帖

下面這個是原文截圖，Klink 引用Schlatter的解釋說,道成肉身以後發生了什麼呢？沒有變化發生。沒有低化質變，沒有因為另一個而改變道的形態，沒有因為道進入肉身而發生分解，也沒有使二者混合的發展，只有完全的聯合。而在這個聯合中沒有從神的一方取出任何東西，也沒有任何東西加給被造的一方。這就是約翰在前言部分所描述的悖論。（紅字對應sarx，譯文是我的嘗試，僅供參考）

根據這段譯文，同意弟兄的解釋，肉身不等於位格，因為位格等於神和人的聯合（我覺得人神聯合這個詞形容主耶穌的位格最好），但是，Sarx可以代表全人，而且是道成了人，因為他也是可見的耶穌基督，正如我們常說的他是道成肉身的神，這也正是聖經的最高啟示關鍵內容，因為神的整個救贖沒有這位道成的人無法完成。這還真是悖論，在一定意義上只可意會不可言傳。所以加深理解神的啟示、神的話語、神的作工永遠沒有止境。

我們可以看到說法的不同，但是粗略的說，神成人，就是道成肉身。這也是Klink的解經結果。我還專門去看了希臘詞典，同一個希臘詞下確實有幾十個不同的意思，但是英文和Klink都選擇了became或者caming into，而不是made，也不是created，可見區別還是很明顯和重大的。我也專門讀了Klink的原文，他特別強調解這句經文的時候要注意三個重大問題。第一個就是神的屬性沒有任何轉化，雖然神已經變成人。而且神人在耶穌基督位格里是不可分的。另外我注意到的就是，Klink似乎並沒有說耶穌基督是創造的高峰，而是說他的工作是創造的高峰，比如福音，在這個上下文中，福音是神的大能是神的工作，就是救贖之工的一部分。我覺得說他的工作是創造的高峰沒有問題，說他這個位格，就問題很大。

題外話的一點思考，就是聖經使用的古希臘文，它固然是新約聖經使用的主要語言，但它也是古希臘哲學的語言，而古希臘哲學充滿了人造神，我們在使用於我們的獨一真神信仰的時候使用幾十種意思中的哪一種，就要非常小心，比如耶穌的道成肉身，用come into being, became 都沒有問題；可是用made，created，或者類似字彙就有問題。

看書發覺視力衰退的厲害，更加知道弟兄辛苦。以上分享供兄弟參考。    

這個弟兄還是要認真對待，釐清被造和造物主的關係。我總覺的說耶穌造物質世界最高峰是造了自己，是一個很不合常理的說法，而且如果他造了自己的人性，這個人性就不符合迦克頓信經的四面牆，因為你自己說的他的身體是道成肉身公元元年才被造，而且有共識二元不可分離，那麼之前如何吻合他的人神二性永不分離？還有人性和人的身體可以分離而獨立存在嗎？如此一來，基督過去現在將來永遠不變的聖經申述如何理解？

我覺得這些絕不是小問題，那些語法的分析非但不絕對，反而要受這些原則管轄，至少要相互參照避免矛盾。

弟兄引用的那些解經和弟兄的解釋，我認為是一個思考的方向；而不是只有一個方向，尤其是考慮整本聖經和信經。還有耶穌創造自己的肉身而且是最高峰創造，這個論點有一定的合理性，但是缺乏明顯的經文根據。如果這是一個重大真理，肯定不會靠一個或者幾個動詞的用法選擇來確定。我個人傾向於神的創造就是六天完成，主耶穌的身體和人性沒有離開那個六天範疇，而且更重大的是，神造人是按照自己的樣式和形像，耶穌只是取了人的形像，沒有必要另外造。而且通過童女感孕，明確啟示了和其他人一樣的身體來源，這個也是四大信經里認定的。所以這些明確的聖經和信經內容，都和弟兄引用的那幾個動詞有不吻合之處，需要繼續讓他們一致。弟兄以為如何？

in depth: “Came/Made/Became” (ἐγένετο/γίνομαι)

The magnificent language and imagery of the prologue as well as its seemingly disjointed nature often detract the reader from grasping the prologue’s collective significance. What holds the prologue together and directs its message is the carefully crafted use of one variously translated Greek verb (γίνομαι). The verb is quite flexible in meaning, which is why it appears in so many different forms in translation, making it undetectable to the English reader: “made,” “came,” “become/became,” the “unique” Son. Since its meaning contains “numerous nuances relating to being and manner of being,” it serves as an excellent medium to express the coming and arrival of the incarnate Word of God. This single Greek verb occurs in every section of the prologue, forming what is like a highway upon which the message and meaning of the prologue travels.

The significance of the verb, however, is not merely its repeated occurrence but its progressive development throughout the prologue. Beginning in v. 3, the verb is used emphatically three times to describe Jesus as the one through whom all things “came” (ἐγένετο) into being, with different verbal tenses expressing both the completed act of creation (aorist) and its continuing effects (perfect). The idea of “creation” behind the use of the verb in v. 3 depicts Jesus as central to all the creativity of God.

John 1:3,

萬物是借着他造的。凡被造的，沒有一樣不是借着他造的。

NRSV: All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being

πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.^a ὃ γέγονεν

In v. 6 the verb is used again, though this time to describe the arrival of John (the Baptist), who “came” (ἐγένετο) beneath the sending mission of God. While there is an intended contrast between John (witness) and Jesus (the one witnessed to), the explicit use of the word in v. 6 implies that a related force is also at work here. John would not have used the same verb four times in six verses without allowing them to work in a coordinated manner. The related force influencing v. 6 is that behind the witness of John is the God of creation (v. 3), who is working in creation. John could have used the imperfect “was” (ἦν), which would have described John from the inside. Instead John signals to the reader that even the ministry of the Baptist is subsumed under the creative working of God.

John 1:6

有一個人，是從神那裡差來的，名叫約翰。

NRSV There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος,^c ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης

After being used again in v. 10 in a manner similar to v. 3, helping to carry forward the developing force of the verb, the term is used for a sixth time in v. 12 to describe the “creative” force of God when those who believe “become” (γενέσθαι) children of God. This transformation can only be described (with Paul) as a new creation, connecting this use of the verb with its emphatic use in v. 3 regarding the creation of the world.

John 1:10

他在世界，世界也是借着他造的，世界卻不認識他。

NRSV He was in the world, and the world  came into being through him,; yet the world did not know him.

ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.

The seventh (a significant number) occurrence of the verb occurs in v. 14 when John describes how the Word “became” (ἐγένετο) flesh. This is the ultimate manifestation of God’s “creative” activity. The God who had been working from the outside was now on the inside; the Creator is now with his creation. In v. 14 Jesus is also described with a new title that is taken from the word’s root: “the unique Son” (μονογενής; repeated in v. 18). By means of this eighth use Jesus has become the pinnacle of creation, the center of human history and all created things. The ninth use of the verb in v. 15 （約翰為他作見證，喊着說，這就是我曾說，那在我以後來的，反成了在我以前的。因他本來在我以前。）reinforces Jesus’s place in history and the plan of God, making clear that Jesus “existed” not only before the time of the Baptist but before the creation of the world.

John 1:14

道成了肉身住在我們中間，充充滿滿的有恩典有真理。我們也見過他的榮光，正是父獨生子的榮光。

ESV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

μονογενοῦς is from μόνος (G3441) and γίνομαι (G1096)

獨生子的意思是：耶穌came into being（γίνομαι ）的方式是獨特的（μόνος），因為耶穌的人性是祂自己造的。

Finally, the verb is used for a tenth (another significant number) time in v. 17 to describe how the gospel of Jesus Christ is the ultimate “creative” act of God: the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth “came” (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ. The same power that God used to create the world (see v. 3) is also at work in the person and ministerial work of Jesus Christ. The children of God were born out of the same power that was used to create the world. With one verb the prologue of John describes with progressive precision the important characters, overall plot, and unseen forces at work in the story; something entirely missed in the English translation.

John 1:17

律法本是借着摩西傳的，恩典和真理，都是由耶穌基督來的。

ESV：For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

The above discussion not only gives evidence of a unified prologue (1:1–18) but also gives warrant for using the cosmological vision cast by the prologue to interpret and understand the historical events described by the remainder of the Gospel. Even more, the verb makes several other meaning-significant appearances through the Gospel. Direct examples include 4:14; 5:6, 9; 6:19; and 8:58. Indirect examples include 3:9; 6:25; 9:27, 39; and 19:36. While we will not explore each of those examples in depth, the same “creative” and transformative vision of the work of God through Jesus Christ crafted by the prologue should, based upon the context, be equally applied to those occurrences.^[1]

^[1] Klink, E. W., III. (2016). John. (C. E. Arnold, Ed.) (pp. 114–116). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.