因為其中有很典型的信徒問題，再把與Mean的討論開新帖如下：

——————————————————————————————————

1. 信徒不應該混淆什麼是主內的信仰標準與非信徒的治政原則：
 Mean："What makes guys like Thomas Paine good enough? He lived at a time when the prevailing faith of the society was at least nominally Christian. He and the other deists like him actively worked against the Christian faith, they are the beginning of the liberal corruption of the Christian Church, they are the reason why such people as Spong can live a Christian bishop yet denounce the gospel as mere fabrication at the same time. In this sense, Thomas Paine was well ahead of his time when he wrote "Age of Reason". So how does it make guys like Thomas Paine good enough for you?"

Ture Chritian faith always thrive when being persecuted , Are you sure Paine worked against Christian faith? Or you assumed that Paine, as one of Christian leaders, corrupted the faith from inside, it always was a possiblity, but that assumption against your first assumption that He was not Christian. But as lay revolutionists or country founders, if they built  one country on "Age of Reason", what a blessing from Almighty God, any country based upon that book will be a great country. 

You see the difference of our point views: you try demanding non-christian to behave like Christians on politics, but I said, if one non-true believer who can acknowledge "Age of Reason", and behave by complying it on government, the bless will follow to that country, that was USA prosperity history, I hope you acknowledge that. We sure can treat USA morale history after 1965 for different perspective.

2. 信徒應該 在信仰國家和家庭上有正確的優先次序

Mean：“遠 's entire argument rests on his conviction that the Founding Fathers submitted themselves to God and were guided by God. Were they?遠's article suggests that the Founding Fathers were model Christians and model men whom we should imitate. Were they? While we don't have to disagree with 遠's conclusion, his reasoning is, let's face it, ridiculous. If we are to treat history fairly (as you said "看待美國歷史和現狀都需要中正"), then we should all be aware of the dangers of the brand of American patriotism that so many American Christians seem to advocate."

No matter Deists or Thesists they all aknowledge Providence/God, I do not think the assumption is wrong that they all submitted to God, very similar you and I "submit" to Christ, you know we all far off perfection submission, and it is not right to judge others  sincerety of submission, but they did "submitted" by  their words.

Talking about "Imitate", I still think that is my model to imitate today if I am a polititian, Let me tell you one true story in the DOD division I am working, one two-star Director/General, in his installation ceromony, he only speak a few words, but he emphasis his life priority and motto to all his subordinates: 1st is God, 2nd is Country, and 3rd is Family.

I believe that is very imitatable and accrediable, to tell you the truth, I met quite a few of sincere polititians, engineering directors, and other community leaders, I am humbled many times by their piety and God-fearing loyality by their attitudes on many issues. I deeply believe even today, though many morale decay in USA, the pillars of this country are still supported by sincere Christian from their sincere faith.

3. 在政治上實施”基督里的神權“是 可慕而不可求的

 Mean："Indeed I would argue that, if "being American" means unquestionably devoting to the spirit of the Founding Fathers' ideology, and "being patriotic" means upholding the Constitution at all cost, then Christians should neither be American nor patriotic. Rather, we should always know who our true Master is. This is neither against freedom nor against equality, but freedom and equality for Christians should always carry a qualifier -- under God in Christ (notice how the Founding Fathers often avoided "God" opting for "Providence", and how the Constitution eliminated Christ altogether)."

Could you be greater than all prophets and apostles in whole bible, I cannot find one of them (sincere God's people), who did not love his people and his country. As humen we all have a flesh heart, I do not think it is possible, I acknowledge that I always love my peoples in both China and USA.

"Under God in Christ",  I believe "Under God" will be good enough for all people, "In Christ" is a previliage for true believers, even you give to non-believers, they will not appreciate it or tramp on it.  But the story will be different when Christ comes, He will rule with iron septor, "In Christ" is enforced, but not today, not mention other believers, even for myself, it is so challenging to be fully in Christ for one hour, whoever said they are continuously in Christ, they have not realized how evil of human hearts are yet.

4: 有幾位信徒仍然認定教會才是真理的柱石和根基，這才是美國道德滑坡的根本原因

Mean：" Are Thomas Paine and the Founding Fathers good enough? Sure they are, for a secular society such as America. But please spare me the mumble jumble about them being "whole" or "complete", about them being guided by God. And don't even start with me with gay marriage and blah blah blah because the Founding Fathers would have done so and so and so. They were neither liberal enough because many were slave owners, nor conservative enough because half of them couldn't give a d**n about the Church. Washington didn't even want a party-type system. That some of them went to Church is entirely congruent to the time they were born in, just like today's young people go to bars and clubs. "

Nobody can be perfect, any expectation of that is living in mirage, but did you find one better government system than American one? let me know if you find one.  As for Gay movement, all Christians hate it. But, where is the driving force? is Chief Justice? Obama? Government?  No, it is the people. It is the culture driving it, why does the people/culture changed? I would say the Churches did not function they should be, did not  shine or salt as the they should be. Ask how many believers around you who sincerely believe the Church is Pillar and foundation of Truth. Why? Do you? This is the root cause our churches are losing power to affect the world. Reflecting time....